Enve has something new coming April 11th

[Baron Blubba]

Originally Posted by shoota

Thanks. Not gonna lie, it's hard coming from a tight geo pure race bike that weighs 15lbs to almost 18lbs. I get the ride comfort and aero and all that but the WW in me dies a little inside when I see those weights.

My Ritchey Logic weighs 18 lbs in full ready to ride mode. My ex-TCR weighed 15. I definitely feel a difference between the two bikes, but the feeling is not a feeling of more or less weight. In terms of speed differential, I'm confident I could win the Tour de France on either one of them.

[shoota]

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

My Ritchey Logic weighs 18 lbs in full ready to ride mode. My ex-TCR weighed 15. I definitely feel a difference between the two bikes, but the feeling is not a feeling of more or less weight. In terms of speed differential, I'm confident I could win the Tour de France on either one of them.

Lighter just feels better. I couldn't win the TdF on anything, so ride experience is probably the #1 thing for me. If I don't enjoy the ride, I'm less inclined to ride. I have a feeling most of us normals feel that way. But I understand that these new bikes can be fun to ride even if they're heavier, I just haven't experienced that yet.

[nmrt]

That's it! Enve is just cashing in on it's name. Nothing wrong with cashing in on their name. But nothing special about this bike either. If the geo fits (and I give them that -- great geometry!), and you have the means get this than the hordes of other bikes out there.

And while I bemoan that it was not make in "Murica, part of me is glad that it is not, especially considering the shoddy work that I've seen coming out from their Utah factory at least when you look at their wheels from a few years ago.

At least the frame is made where they specialize in making carbon frames.

Originally Posted by Likes2ridefar

Another forum member let me know about a site to consider ordering the fray from and I checked other bikes while there. a 3t exploro racemax in my size with Ekar and decent wheels is listed for 2499.99. I’m fairly confident that bike will do everything the Enve will do (for me) but it doesn’t have DT storage

[Baron Blubba]

Originally Posted by nmrt

That's it! Enve is just cashing in on it's name. Nothing wrong with cashing in on their name. But nothing special about this bike either. If the geo fits (and I give them that -- great geometry!), and you have the means get this than the hordes of other bikes out there.

At least the frame is made where they specialize in making carbon frames.

I will speak very generally, not regarding any brand in particular. Like many other folks in these parts, I'm lucky enough to ride/have ridden lots and lots of different bikes. At this point, any modern road (or all-road) bike from a decent brand is going to be fast enough and smooth-riding enough.
I can accomplish the same stuff, within +/-2-3% on my favorite bikes as I can on bikes I really don't like riding (insofar as one can not like riding a bike, but you know what I mean). The difference? Some bikes just feel a lot better to do stuff on than others. 'Feels better' is subjective, but I'm pretty sure that if one would go to a bike shop and test ride 5 road bikes back to back, one would be able to make a definitive choice, even if all 5 of those bikes weighed the same and were the same fast, based on feel.
Okay, if not definitive, at least narrow it down to two finalists!

There's a lot of marketing BS I don't buy (aero is crazy overrated, weight is crazy overrated, material choice is in many crazy overrated), but I believe that an Emonda, TCR, Tarmac, R5, Supersix, Melee, Ostro Vam, so on and so forth, all perform similarly but feel quite different from one another.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

I will speak very generally, not regarding any brand in particular. Like many other folks in these parts, I'm lucky enough to ride/have ridden lots and lots of different bikes. At this point, any modern road (or all-road) bike from a decent brand is going to be fast enough and smooth-riding enough.

I can accomplish the same stuff, within +/-2-3% on my favorite bikes as I can on bikes I really don't like riding (insofar as one can not like riding a bike, but you know what I mean). The difference? Some bikes just feel a lot better to do stuff on than others.

I agree with all of this, but would remove the "modern" qualifier in the 1st paragraph.

I had an "ah-hah" moment many years ago. I am pretty short, and probably had been riding bikes too big for me. When I finally got on a bike that fit me properly, with compact bars that I could comfortably access the drops, contact points in optimal spaces, etc - wow, I realized that riding a drop bar bike is not meant to be uncomfortable, with the proper fit.

After that, everything changed, and IMO, fit on the bike is king. All of the other stuff, aero this, lightweight that, etc are all gravy and do make a difference, but not a game changer like the proper fit turned out to be.

I bet this is a great bike for many riders. It's not for me for a variety of reasons, but i'm not a hater either.

[madcow]

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

I will speak very generally, not regarding any brand in particular....

I mostly agree with what you said and totally agree with angryscientist that fit is paramount. But I would mention something about test riding bikes at shops. Very often small changes in the way a bike is assembled (pre-fit) can completely change the feel of the bike. A great example is that almost all road bikes that come from the major manufacturers come with saddles preinstalled on seatposts and levers preinstalled on the handlebar with bar tape already on them. This means lever position was decided and set at the factory. And for some reason all the factories seem to use the same antiquated rule when setting the levers, which is to put the lowest tip of the lever blade parallel to the drops. We have fit information from over 7000 fits and can say with confidence that more than 90% of riders when fit properly end up with their levers not in this factory setting. We have arrived at an average angle that feels right to the largest percentage of people based on frame size. So in our shop we take the time when building a new bike to untape the bars, reposition the levers, retape the bars and check and change the saddle position, which I believe almost no other shop does. So my point is that if you go to a local shop and ride bike X in a 54 and then come to us and ride that exact same bike in the same size it's going to feel very different and give a very different experience. So I guess I would say that it's possible for the fit adjustments or lack thereof on a stock bike to misrepresent that bikes "feel" Keep in mind that a change of 0 to 15 degrees can effectively change reach by as much as 2cm on modern bikes with short/shallow bars.

New groups will soon be released and for the first time that I'm aware of, one of them actually includes recommendations on how to set starting neutral lever angle. No surprise it's not to set it level with the ground or tip parallel to the bar. If manufacturers choose to use their same existing standard for factory builds, bikes with this new group are going to be very mis-represented in test rides.

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by madcow

A new group will soon be released

SRAM group?

[Baron Blubba]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

I agree with all of this, but would remove the "modern" qualifier in the 1st paragraph.

I had an "ah-hah" moment many years ago. I am pretty short, and probably had been riding bikes too big for me. When I finally got on a bike that fit me properly, with compact bars that I could comfortably access the drops, contact points in optimal spaces, etc - wow, I realized that riding a drop bar bike is not meant to be uncomfortable, with the proper fit.

After that, everything changed, and IMO, fit on the bike is king. All of the other stuff, aero this, lightweight that, etc are all gravy and do make a difference, but not a game changer like the proper fit turned out to be.

I bet this is a great bike for many riders. It's not for me for a variety of reasons, but i'm not a hater either.

Just want to clarify what I meant. Yes, fit and geometry as it pertains to fit and handling are paramount for most. I also meant that none of the bikes I mentioned feel the same in terms of sensory feedback, the way they translate the road into a tactile feeling. Also, all these bikes move differently underneath you, both seated and standing, even with identical wheels and tires; it's like every bike has a different sized fulcrum that it pivots horizontally upon when the rider pushes it side to side, as well as different weight locations. I'm sure this is down to tube shaping, geometry, bb height, stack, bar length/height, chainstay length, q-factor, and many other factors, some of which are changeable and some of which are permanent features of the bike. But anyway, my point is that no two bikes are the same. I have friends who swear by their Cannondale Super Sixes. I think the last two iterations are some of the most awful riding high end bikes I've ridden. They are similarly fast enough and smooth enough as every other good bike maker's top o the line bike, and I fit on them nicely, but gosh darn, I just don't enjoy the way they move or the feels they impart.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

Snip
I have friends who swear by their Cannondale Super Sixes. I think the last two iterations are some of the most awful riding high end bikes I've ridden. They are similarly fast enough and smooth enough as every other good bike maker's top o the line bike, and I fit on them nicely, but gosh darn, I just don't enjoy the way they move or the feels they impart.

My 2016 Evo Hi-Mod has a HTA of 72.9 degrees and the later ones drop down to 71.2 degrees in the same 54cm size. They increase fork rake to obtain the same trail, but there's more wheel flop. I wouldn’t like them either, and I'm pretty over the moon on the way mine feels.

This is a prime example of if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I like what they're doing with the Flay BTW but I'm sticking with my Bingham.

[morrisond]

Does anyone know who makes the Bento bag on the Fray on the ENVE site?

Scroll down on this page to the picture beside the Caption "Top Tube Mount"

https://enve.com/collections/fray

Thanks

[2metalhips]

Looks like a Tailfin but can't be sure because of the lighting. I have two and they are quite good.

[Philster]

Originally Posted by madcow

I mostly agree with what you said and totally agree with angryscientist that fit is paramount. But I would mention something about test riding bikes at shops. Very often small changes in the way a bike is assembled (pre-fit) can completely change the feel of the bike. A great example is that almost all road bikes that come from the major manufacturers come with saddles preinstalled on seatposts and levers preinstalled on the handlebar with bar tape already on them. This means lever position was decided and set at the factory. And for some reason all the factories seem to use the same antiquated rule when setting the levers, which is to put the lowest tip of the lever blade parallel to the drops. We have fit information from over 7000 fits and can say with confidence that more than 90% of riders when fit properly end up with their levers not in this factory setting. We have arrived at an average angle that feels right to the largest percentage of people based on frame size. So in our shop we take the time when building a new bike to untape the bars, reposition the levers, retape the bars and check and change the saddle position, which I believe almost no other shop does. So my point is that if you go to a local shop and ride bike X in a 54 and then come to us and ride that exact same bike in the same size it's going to feel very different and give a very different experience. So I guess I would say that it's possible for the fit adjustments or lack thereof on a stock bike to misrepresent that bikes "feel" Keep in mind that a change of 0 to 15 degrees can effectively change reach by as much as 2cm on modern bikes with short/shallow bars.

New groups will soon be released and for the first time that I'm aware of, one of them actually includes recommendations on how to set starting neutral lever angle. No surprise it's not to set it level with the ground or tip parallel to the bar. If manufacturers choose to use their same existing standard for factory builds, bikes with this new group are going to be very mis-represented in test rides.

These old rules drive me nuts! Willing to share what you do? From what I’ve read, it’s top of the bars (before the curve down) level or slightly down and levers up.

[tootall]

The Fray seems like a similar bike to the Cervelo Caledonia 5, just a couple of years further along the tire clearance spectrum. Stack and reach numbers are very similar, as is the trail number though they arrive there 2 different ways.

[fatsanta92]

Originally Posted by 2metalhips

Looks like a Tailfin but can't be sure because of the lighting. I have two and they are quite good.

Not a tailfin - doesn't look slanted enough

https://www.tailfin.cc/product/small...v=7516fd43adaa

[2metalhips]

Originally Posted by fatsanta92

Not a tailfin - doesn't look slanted enough

https://www.tailfin.cc/product/small...v=7516fd43adaa

I double checked it against mine and it looks exactly like a Tailfin, .8L. Same shape, zipper design/style and the little zipper closure protector at the top. They have blocked out the logo probably for branding rights.