For comment: "Why It's Impossible For Steel Frames To Be More Comfortable..."

[vincenz]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

You insist that I, and a bunch of others are ignoring a point, but maybe we don't read a well articulated, valid point. What I read is an issue with semantics (also highlighted by Bob Ross), but I'm not interested in a back and forth about semantics.

Most everyone seems to have distilled the important factors out and aren't viewing this as an over-simplification as you do. The video outlines why other component parts have a much, much larger influence on the otherwise tiny, or non existent influence of the frame (if forces are even large enough to flex it)

Now, you seem to believe there are a series of other significant factors at play in a bicycle frame only*, beyond vertical compliance/shock absorption/vertical forces that influence "the human-determined value of comfort" then make your counter point. Where are they? What are they? What are these significant factors? Help me understand them.

*Assuming all the other parts of the system (components are the exact same, same wheels, same tires, same fork, same geometry, same weight, same profile, same everything just a different frames and frame material)

I'll happily read your reply, but I'm likely done trying to add to explaining this...

Did I ever disagree that other components have a role to play in comfort? His video and this discussion is about the frame, not other components.

Yes, there is an issue with semantics, which you disagreed on in your reply to me. Now if there is a change in that, then ok.

Where are they? What are they? What are these significant factors?

Obviously, if that were quantified and explained already, there wouldn't be this discussion. What makes you think I have those answers? See the discussion before your entry.

Vertical deflection numbers alone do not quantify the ride feel of steel or ti compared to carbon and alu. For starters, this characteristic plays a big part in "comfort."

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by vincenz

So go ahead and measure and define with numbers the differences between different frame materials I and others can feel, because it certainly isn't ONE number a la "vertical deflection." Create the formula to describe this ride quality/comfort and present it.

Didn't think so...

I am not trying to pick an online fight nor troll you. If you want to claim that you can feel differences in frame material that's fine. You should however make sure that the geometry, components and wheels are identical between frames. Then you should make sure that you are not aware of what the material of each frame is. Then make sure that each frame has roughly the same "stiffness", and same fork. This is how science works and how the "formulas" are created. Anecdotal evidence is not actual evidence. The frame has the lowest amount of deflection in the whole bike system and it contributes a minuscule amount to the overall deflection of the bike. This has been very carefully documented in engineering labs and published in peer reviewed journals. Material does not really matter, design does. You can build in perceptible deflection into a frame but it usually requires dramatic design changes.

Sorry of I got your dander up, no snark or offence meant.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by slowpoke

What's everyone's favorite Tom Waits album?

Different albums, but this is definitely my favorite Tom Waits song. It is from his relatively unknown and very rare but minor classic album, "What's The Last Word In Steel-Wheeled Comfort?".

Apparently he tested 100s of steel pots and pans and kept very precise records of all the numbers before finally recording and publishing the song.

His thesis is truly brilliant, imo. But, the song is from 1992, and we know/don't know that "comfort" has/has not improved by leaps and bounds and/or bunny-hops since then, apparently.

[reuben]

Originally Posted by slowpoke

What's everyone's favorite Tom Waits album?

1) Nighthawks at the Diner

2) Mule Variations

Played on a steel-mounted turntable, of course.

[colker]

It´s not flex but resonance and shock dispersion. Tactile feel muted but still transmitted by each material in different ways. Comfort is achieved through fit, athletic and geometric (fit w/ the bicycle)... each material may produce a different feel and even within materials it will vary according to diameter,thickness, lay up, length etc..
Science tries to explain what we feel and most of the time it succeeds. If it cannot explain does not mean it´s a false feeling.

[reuben]

Originally Posted by colker

It´s not flex but resonance and shock dispersion. Tactile feel muted but still transmitted by each material in different ways. Comfort is achieved through fit, athletic and geometric (fit w/ the bicycle)... each material may produce a different feel and even within materials it will vary according to diameter,thickness, lay up, length etc..
Science tries to explain what we feel and most of the time it succeeds. If it cannot explain does not mean it´s a false feeling.

What the heck does that have to do with Tom Waits? Moderator!!!!

[colker]

Originally Posted by reuben

What the heck does that have to do with Tom Waits? Moderator!!!!

TW is working right now on a song about steel and comfort.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by reuben

What the heck does that have to do with Tom Waits?

Do I get any points for having posted a video of Tom Waits actually riding a steel bicycle, and looking damned comfortable while doing so, even singing out loud? (But not quite as comfortable as Paul Newman with Katharine Ross perched in front of him accompanied by an incredibly cheesy song, of course.)

Or is the video automatically insignificant and demoted because Tom didn't sing about the precise numbers and percentages regarding resilience, resistance, minimum elongation, ultimate strength, austenic v martensitic, etc etc etc?

[RWL2222]

Originally Posted by Dino Suegiù

Do I get any points for having posted a video of Tom Waits actually riding a steel bicycle, and looking damned comfortable while doing so, even singing out loud? (But not quite as comfortable as Paul Newman with Katharine Ross perched in front of him accompanied by an incredibly cheesy song, of course.)

As the OP I wholeheartedly approve of your reference to one of the most beautiful bicycle scenes ever put to film, and thereby adding a lightened touch to the thread.

What a weird Tom Waits vid though.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by RWL2222

As the OP I wholeheartedly approve of your reference to one of the most beautiful bicycle scenes ever put to film, and thereby adding a lightened touch to the thread.

What a weird Tom Waits vid though.

I far prefer anything Tom Waits to whoever sang that horribly cheesy raindrops song.

But, as they say, to each their own comfort, whether in steel or in verse.

[RWL2222]

Originally Posted by Dino Suegiù

I far prefer anything Tom Waits to whoever sang that horribly cheesy raindrops song.

But, as they say, to each their own comfort, whether in steel or in verse.

Didn't mean to dis' Tom Waits. I saw him in play in NO or NY or somewhere a long time ago. One of my fav's is Emotional Weather Report, a fitting tune for these days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5YNPDp8Ww

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by RWL2222

Didn't mean to dis' Tom Waits. I saw him in play in NO or NY or somewhere a long time ago. One of my fav's is Emotional Weather Report, a fitting tune for these days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5YNPDp8Ww