Front knee pain after riding - setback?

[Ken Robb]

I had meniscus surgery on both knees over 20 years ago. I gave up tennis and I almost never even get a twinge these days BUT-------About 12 years ago I bought a lovely Serotta Legend that had 180mm cranks rather than my usual 170; 172.5; and 175mm cranks. At first I was thrilled how I could muscle up hills in higher gears so I did that a lot. But after a while I started getting the kind of pain behind the patella you described so I went back to downshifting even when I didn't "need" to for a given climb. I think too-long cranks can cause knee pain just because they require more flexion of the joint and the pain can get worse if a rider revels in the extra leverage and becomes a big gear masher. I can extrapolate from too-long cranks to too-low saddle because they both cause too much flexion.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Turkle

I will say that I found out my saddle was too far back when my lower back had to bend so far forwards that it impinged the nerves back there and I started getting numb feet! So I find a happy medium between too far forward (neck and shoulder pain) and too far back (numb feet) and then it's dialed in there for me.

I also use a 10cm saddle to bar drop, that some folks think is huge for 5'-6" rider i n addition to more than average setback. It's really just a common racing fit. I definitely don't race but it doesn't bother me on rides up to 4 hours.

I got reamed for mentioning my frame size recently. Modern frame size numbers and letters have little correlation to traditional horizontal TT frame sizes. Those who haven't need to learn stack and reach. Those make it so much easier to pick the right size.

[mastaliu]

First, I'm sorry to hear you're having knee pain. It can be frustrating and can be difficult to sort out once it gets chronic.

I've had 2 knee surgeries from crashes in my racing days and years of battling knee issues on and off the bike ever since. What I've found is that, along with what everyone else has mentioned, poor or uneven hip and butt muscle strength can be the source for many knee problems. If your knee cap starts to track poorly on the articular cartilage surface it gets painful and chronic quickly. This is often a mysterious "chondromalacia patella" for which you are given quad exercises but the lower back, hips and glutes are so important on the bike to keep it all aligned and strong.

Find the best sports PT who understands the knee and cycling and make sure they check your whole system, not just knee.

...and get a foam roller, the hard one, and roll the IT band!

[Peter P.]

Yes, pain behind the knee cap can be an indicator of too low a seat height.

What you read about zero setback posts doesn't make sense to me at all, either.

I'm an advocate of KOPS, not as an absolute but as an excellent starting point.
Most frame seat angles are designed around a setback post so your seat could very well be too far forward. You could buy a cheap setback post and experiment with a KOPS-like position for a month and see what happens.

You could have a leg length discrepancy and it's the long leg that's experiencing the pain.

Some food for thought.

[Teutoned]

Uhhh, I wouldn’t $$ spring $$ for a seatpost with more setback before at least maxing out the adjustment on my zero setback post and saddle first. Can’t I just move it back in 2-3mm increments until I feel the prob. is eliminated? Or at least, until the the keyboard jockies in the “hot ‘r not” thread tell me that is not…

[markie]

Lots of causes of knee pain:

Too low a saddle

Pushing too big a gear

Training too hard without base fitness - “spring knee”


I don’t think setback is normally on the list as long as saddle height is ok. Look at the strange positions triathletes get in…

Check your saddle height and look at some of the online saddle height calculators like this: https://www.rivbike.com/pages/pubic-...asure-your-pbh

[bshell]

I've always wondered about the 'pushing too hard of a gear' idea. Is there any similarity to squatting with a loaded barbell?

It seems like if you can push the gear (mechanically correctly) it shouldn't affect your knee health.

[jimoots]

Is there a reason that nobody has mentioned cleat position

Your body is a lot more forgiving to saddle position and being too low (but not too high) than it is your cleats being out of whack.

You may have had the same position for months or years but an increase in riding or simply repetitive stress can flare the issue up.

I would highly recommend getting off google and speaking with a fitter (pref with some physio qualifications) who can assist you here. Unless you are meticulous with how you make changes, the trial and error approach often ends up with changes that cascade poorly.

Best of luck.

[merckx]

Originally Posted by bshell

I've always wondered about the 'pushing too hard of a gear' idea. Is there any similarity to squatting with a loaded barbell?

It seems like if you can push the gear (mechanically correctly) it shouldn't affect your knee health.

The difference is repetition at load.

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by bshell

I've always wondered about the 'pushing too hard of a gear' idea. Is there any similarity to squatting with a loaded barbell?

It seems like if you can push the gear (mechanically correctly) it shouldn't affect your knee health.

As someone who pushes low cadence (anywhere down to about 65 is fine for me) I’m someone who doesn’t quite grasp this either.

I think what low cadence may do, which fuels this semi-myth, is really show up a poor bike fit and fast track an impending injury.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Dave

I also use a 10cm saddle to bar drop, that some folks think is huge for 5'-6" rider.

I think you may be the only person that thinks it's huge.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

I think you may be the only person that thinks it's huge.

I've never used the term huge. Once again misquoting me.

I've had plenty of comments saying its extreme, starting with the tiny frame comments, then proceeding to the extreme drop.

How you get the idea that I think it's extreme I have no idea. I've often said that it's a common racing fit for someone of my size.

My Cinelli Superstar is the smallest frame they sell. If I used a common -6 stem, there would be no spacers. I chose a -17 to allow 15mm more steerer for easier resale.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Dave

I also use a 10cm saddle to bar drop, that some folks think is huge for 5'-6" rider ...

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

I think you may be the only person that thinks it's huge.

Originally Posted by Dave

I've never used the term huge. Once again misquoting me.

Short memory?

[Tz779]

After seven seasons of training and racing I developed pain in my left knee. I was finishing my masters thesis at the time and decided to just lay off cycling, give it a rest, and finish up my degree. That fall, I went on a hiking trip and coming down the mountain, every step down on my left leg caused real knee pain. A referral to an orthopedic and subsequent “exploratory arthroscopic surgery” was removal of inflamed tissue, or plica syndrome. Marathon runner Joan Benoit had the same surgery.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-9f6eb0d5360e/

Anyway, “overuse” is the cause. During recovery I was bike fitted by John Allis at Peter Mooneys shop in Belmont. The only change was moving my saddle up or down 1cm! So it is very unlikely that affected my knee.

So, yeah, if your symptoms match, have it checked out! Good luck ; )
Best,
-Robin

[fmradio516]

Thanks all for the input.

Since i started cycling, besides my townie/special bikes, i usually never held onto my serious road ride bikes for longer than a year. I would usually see something else i liked and buy it and sell the old one. I think i should stop this habit now since i put together my Helix with Campy 12 discs. I dont need anything more than that.

Im also constantly changing stems, seatpost, bar/lever angle every few rides because something always bothers me and i think i can fix it myself.. SO my point being.. Im going to go get a proper fit. This woman is not far from me and she looks absolutely LEGIT: https://www.classcycles.com/articles...rapy-pg177.htm

Im also going to go to the orthopedist and get an MRI to check if my meniscus is torn... It just sucks if i need surgery because i JUST started zwifting and really like it. I want to do it every day but i know i need to take a break to heal up.