Mosaic RT-1 Pricing // Custom frame pricing

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by nmrt

The $6900 price for Mosaic RT-1 disc includes the following:
1. Frame and fork painted (two-tone paint)
2. CK Headset
3. internally routed brake and shifting

It is not what that $6900 bothers me. It is what it is. For some it might be a great deal if they are into painting how Mosaic paints their frames.
What bothers me is that if I want a bare (non-painted) RT-1 (this is the only butted road bike that Mosaic produces), I will still have to pay $6900!

No kidding to all that. Either reply "Naked costs $xyz less" or else "Sorry, but we do not offer the RT-1 naked", no? It seems incredibly rude to act as if the paint has (but then doesn't have) an impact on the price.

Just imagine the upcharge if one supplies one's own headset rather than their CK....

[jkbrwn]

Originally Posted by Coffee Rider

It's less than a 10% difference and at this price point, I don't think that is going to make a difference to prospective purchasers, especially when you factor in what it will cost to finish the bike. Something else to consider is that Mosaic sells through dealers and Strong sells direct, so there has to be room in the price for dealer margin.

Seven also sells through dealers though and a butted frameset (granted, with no paint) is just below $4000 with an Enve and CK. They don't do internal routing for brakes, but they certainly don't charge for Di2 routing. I respect what Mosaic are doing from an aesthetic perspective but the price does seem high.

With all of that said, none of it matters, because people are buying them and as long as the customer enjoys it, then who cares

[weisan]

I remembered reading a post by David Kirk providing some details and insight into the price/cost/reality/economics of a framebuilder. It was sobering.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by prototoast

lynskey charges $100 for an etap frame which involves no holes!

Now those guys really have it figured out!

[Coffee Rider]

Originally Posted by Dino Suegiù

I would be slack-jaw stunned if 4 water bottle holes cost $1200 total on a $3000/$5000 frame, though, wouldn't you?

I'd be really turned off by charging for the ability to install water bottle cages. I do think $300 per hole is very high. I'm pretty sure I paid about $500 to get a frame retrofitted for electronic, so I think more than that for getting it installed in the first place is high.

[Jeff N.]

What gets me is the big upcharge some folks add for custom geometry (Moots, No22). I mean...how tough can it be?

[buddybikes]

Originally Posted by Jeff N.

What gets me is the big upcharge some folks add for custom geometry (Moots, No22). I mean...how tough can it be?

Labor hours, especially for the designer and the cutter. I bet a custom frame, with all the back and forth could add up to 1 day of labor.

[Coffee Rider]

Originally Posted by Jeff N.

What gets me is the big upcharge some folks add for custom geometry (Moots, No22). I mean...how tough can it be?

If I were getting a No. 22, I'd just think of the $500 difference as a discount for getting something stock instead of an upcharge. Parlee charges $1000 extra for custom geometry, which I think is high considering how expensive stock geometry is.

[Jeff N.]

Originally Posted by steveandbarb1

Labor hours, especially for the designer and the cutter. I bet a custom frame, with all the back and forth could add up to 1 day of labor.

Does Seven have an upcharge for custom? Firefly? Mosaic? Holland? Did Serotta? Spectrum? MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmno.

[NoMoreParagon]

Originally Posted by Dino Suegiù

I guess that there is no substantial enough demand/market (yet?) for that third niche, or if it would ever even make real economic sense.

One the one hand there are "budget" titanium brands such as Waltly and Carver already mentioned here; Rewel or Nevi in Italy; Leon in France; J&L et al in Taiwan, all now making frames, and I'm sure at least several others.

On the other hand there are semi-custom/custom (in this discussion MUSA) builders among the many mentioned here already, from a Lynskey and Litespeed to Kish/De Salvo/Holland/Potts to Moots/FF/Seven to Mosaic. There is a substantial cost range there, far wider than the actual benefits range in some cases.

So between the two hands I guess there is not enough demand for a third range/territory. Who knows, maybe in the future an excellent slick marketer will figure some schtick out, but I think the experiment has sort of been attempted in the past (Macalu (Excel Sports) and Douglas (Colorado Cyclist) and Airborne, etc., come to mind) and did not ever stick.

With good cheap steel, good cheap carbon, good cheap alu already available in large numbers, I think "good cheap ti" has a really hard road to hoe in that field.

Nevi in Italy definitely not a budget titanium offer. On the opposite. I would rank them up there with Passoni and Bertoletti.
They have more expertise on Titanium than many others custom builders out there and have been involved in very high spec projects outside the biking industry.
They make a custom titanium fork by hand which is something no others have done so well.
Their LA1 version frames are up there with the best.
They were slow to adopt some new tech (flat mount and disc brakes in promis) and they missed the gravel wagon big time (similar to both Passoni and Bertoletti).


Also Italian Ti builder weld their frames in a hyperbaric chambers which add even more costs because
1. The equipment is crazy steep
2. The aesthetic of the weld after a pass in the chamber usually require manual polishing which add labor.

My view is that Mosaic is where it is, because of mainly 3 things
1. Exception work flow management
2. Very good aesthetics
3. A dealer network which they built over time and tried to protect very adamantly. You won’t be able to order directly from them not thru not affiliated dealers (with few exception).

I don’t like at all their paint jobs. It’s overpriced and not that original.
But the raw Ti frames are extraordinary.

I do think they are a bit too focused on their dealers at the expense of the final rider.
At the end it’s working for them so That what matters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mikej]

Originally Posted by jkbrwn

Seven also sells through dealers though and a butted frameset (granted, with no paint) is just below $4000 with an Enve and CK. They don't do internal routing for brakes, but they certainly don't charge for Di2 routing. I respect what Mosaic are doing from an aesthetic perspective but the price does seem high.

With all of that said, none of it matters, because people are buying them and as long as the customer enjoys it, then who cares

I’ve seen them doing internal brake recently. With a shop team discount, you can’t beat Seven-

[Wakatel_Luum]

As an owner of two Merlin Metalworks Extralight's (1996 & 1998) I'm considering another Merlin (made by Dean) with disc brakes/sloping geometry etc for my 50th in a few years...requiring custom geometry the same as my current bikes is totally FREE! I'm also considering another Tommasini but a Mach 1 Titanium and again custom geometry is totally FREE!

No f...king way am I paying for custom geometry, these marque brands are just fleecing the customer...in my opinion they charge a premium for all the other costs so there should be no legitimate reason for custom geometry.

[John H.]

You never said how new/old the frame is?
Painted or unpainted? And if painted, do you like the paint job?
Rim or disc brake?
What size tire?
Condition?
Any other factors that may make it hard or easy to sell?

Regardless of retail price- These are important factors.

But this is a used custom bike- So price in the used market should be a fraction of what a new one costs.
This is not an unobtainable frame by any means.

[jkbrwn]

Originally Posted by Mikej

I’ve seen them doing internal brake recently. With a shop team discount, you can’t beat Seven-

That’s interesting. I just ordered a Seven through Summer Cycles and internal routing wasn’t an option on road frames. Nor is it on Seven’s order form. In fact, their site explicitly states that they do not offer it to protect the integrity of the frames life.

The only two notes under cable routing are:

Disc Brake : Zip Tie Guides under Down Tube and under Chainstay Rim Brake: Brake Cable Stops at 7:30 on Top Tube

[Jeff N.]

Originally Posted by jkbrwn

That’s interesting. I just ordered a Seven through Summer Cycles and internal routing wasn’t an option on road frames. Nor is it on Seven’s order form. In fact, their site explicitly states that they do not offer it to protect the integrity of the frames life.

The only two notes under cable routing are:

Disc Brake : Zip Tie Guides under Down Tube and under Chainstay Rim Brake: Brake Cable Stops at 7:30 on Top Tube

That's correct. Unless Seven has made changes that I haven't heard, internal brake cable routing is NOT an option. It wasn't on Spectrums either...and Spectrums were made by Seven. (I'm talkin' ROAD bikes here, not friggin' MB's.)