Out of spec custom frame: advice sought

[callmeishmael]

I’m looking for some advice on how to handle an out of spec custom frame. I’m UK based for clarity, as is the builder.

My new (disc) XCR frame arrived this week. As very brief background, the frame is coming from a relatively small builder who is looking to go full time and expand his business, and I was offered this frame at cost, on the condition of the bike being used for publicity, some shows, and the builder having some input on the final spec and paint. It has still not been inexpensive, I’d add.

There are 1 or 2 very minor quibbles, but the crucial point is this: while the frame looks beautiful, it falls some way short of the agreed tyre clearance. I specified that while I doubted I’d ever run 32s, I wanted that option, and certainly I wanted to be able to run 30s with mudguards.

28c Pirellis, fitted on 21mm internal/29mm external width wheels, actually have barely 2mm clearance at the chainstay on this new frame. For reference, my rim brake Ridley, which has an ‘official’ max clearance of 26, has slightly more clearance at the chainstay with a 28c tyre.

I have contacted the builder, who has been receptive. Given he hasn’t questioned it at all, in fact, I actually suspect he already knew about this.
In any case, he has offered me 3 options:

1 - That he reduces the price by 20%, and I accept the frame as is;
2 - That he constructs and fits a new rear triangle. There would be neither a discount nor a cost for this. He estimates a ~6 week turnaround time (with the delay coming from the painter).
3 - That he amends the existing rear triangle as far as possible. He has said that he suspects he’ll able to get an extra ~2mm per side without having to fit new stays. No discount has been mentioned in connection with this, but neither has one been ruled out, either.

I'm considering these and have said I will revert.

It’s worth adding as context that the bike was supposed to be with me before the end of October 2023, and I have some of my biggest events of the year coming up in the next 2 months.

Perhaps I’m being unreasonable, but I’m not wholly happy with any of the options above.

First, I’m not terribly keen on a disc frame in 2024 where the max tyre size really is a 28. Second, and while I know little about stainless steel and framebuilding, I’m somewhat uneasy with the prospect of the stays being manipulated in situ. Finally, given I’m currently putting in the miles and training for key events, and would like to get used to any bike I intend to ride in them, 6 weeks without a dedicated road bike isn’t a very satisfactory situation. Also, given the builder’s historic timing, I think 6 weeks is likely a best case scenario rather than a hard limit.

With all of that in mind, does anyone have any advice or good suggestions here?

Thanks.

[weisan]

The sooner you accept the fact that some degree of compromise is necessary on both sides, I doubt you will ever be satisfied no matter what the restitution is.

It happens.

[KonaSS]

Good that the builder is being responsive and willing to work with you.

I think the builder is offering reasonable options, unless you are suggesting you just want all your money back and want to walk away.

Choose which best fits your needs. I would take the long term view which gets you what you will be happy with years from now, which is likely option 2.

Custom isn't always rainbows and sunshine. Paceliners tend to shy away from talking about this stuff when they are always suggesting custom, but I think happens more than many realize. This situation seems like an annoying bump in the journey which hopefully can be resolved.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by callmeishmael

28c Pirellis, fitted on 21mm internal/29mm external width wheels.

You left out a critical data point. What do those tires measure out as on those rims?

[NHAero]

If I was intending to keep the bike I'd get a new rear triangle and accept the delay, not counting on the bike for the events. If I thought I'd have the bike for a while then move it along I'd take the discount and then sell it when the next frame was ready, as is.

[Alistair]

Very annoying.

I think I’d pick #2. That should get you the bike you wanted, just much delayed.

#1 is a non-starter as the bike won’t meet your needs. And resale is likely impacted as many buyers will want 32mm clearance as well. Unless your initial discount makes up for that and you think you can sell it on in a year or two without losing your shirt.

#3 might work, but like you I’d be skeptical of how much cleaner he can massage out of the existing stays. But if one of the regular frame builders here chimes in and says it’s possible, then maybe this gets you on the bike faster.

[vespasianus]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

You left out a critical data point. What do those tires measure out as on those rims?

This is a very important point. My 28mm tires actually measure close to 30mm on my rims.

You said it was at cost and a new builder? I am under the impression that stainless is a little bit different than regular steel and would worry that something down the line would go wrong.

I would say take the 20% discount and call it a day.

[AngryScientist]

My view here is that the OP engaged an up-and-coming junior builder to build a frame at a significant discount (what does "at cost" mean in this scenario???). In this case, IMO, you have to accept that some details may be missed.

There is a reason you pay a huge premium to get Dave Kirk, or Firefly or No22 to build a bike. They have decades of experience and get the details right.

A garage builder who is trying to establish a business and sells you a frame "at cost" - you can not have the same expectations.

I also would like to see an answer to my actual tire width question. We are living in a weird time where published tire sizes are near meaningless. If that 28mm tire measures out to 31mm on super wide rims that are common today, I think the builder is off the hook. If you asked for clearance for 32's, that should mean 32mm.

I get the frustrations though. It sucks to order, wait for something, and when you get it, it's not what you wanted.

[StressStrain]

Uggh, what a bummer situation.

Realistically, how long do you want to keep the bike? And when answering this question, keep in mind that you're off to a bad start with this frame and the 'lingering grudge' effect may effect your answer, depending on your personal view of the world etc.

If your heart is in keeping it a long time, option 2 is best. It addresses the problem. Six weeks off the bike sucks but will seem short over the long term.

If your heart is not in it, option 1 is doable.

Framebuilders, what do you think of option 3? How much clearance can be added in situ?

[Zackus]

Originally Posted by Alistair

Very annoying.

I think I’d pick #2. That should get you the bike you wanted, just much delayed.

#1 is a non-starter as the bike won’t meet your needs. And resale is likely impacted as many buyers will want 32mm clearance as well. Unless your initial discount makes up for that and you think you can sell it on in a year or two without losing your shirt.

#3 might work, but like you I’d be skeptical of how much cleaner he can massage out of the existing stays. But if one of the regular frame builders here chimes in and says it’s possible, then maybe this gets you on the bike faster.

I think Alistair has the right idea. I think #2 is probably the best option, but I think if some framebuilders can chime in about if 3 is a good idea that may work out. I assume this means crimping the stays more? Are they currently crimped/dimpled for clearance?

[callmeishmael]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

You left out a critical data point. What do those tires measure out as on those rims?

A good point. By my (admittedly cheap) digital calipers, it is ~29.0 (I've taken several measurements at various points on the tyre which range between 28.7 and 29.2mm).

[bicycletricycle]

I think I would have the new rear end put on

[callmeishmael]

Originally Posted by Zackus

I think Alistair has the right idea. I think #2 is probably the best option, but I think if some framebuilders can chime in about if 3 is a good idea that may work out. I assume this means crimping the stays more? Are they currently crimped/dimpled for clearance?

Chainstays currently crimped/dimpled slightly. I haven't (yet) asked for the technical details as to how the process might work.

[callmeishmael]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

My view here is that the OP engaged an up-and-coming junior builder to build a frame at a significant discount (what does "at cost" mean in this scenario???). In this case, IMO, you have to accept that some details may be missed.

There is a reason you pay a huge premium to get Dave Kirk, or Firefly or No22 to build a bike. They have decades of experience and get the details right.

A garage builder who is trying to establish a business and sells you a frame "at cost" - you can not have the same expectations.

Some fair points here. 'At cost' means me covering the actual cost of the tubing, painting, tooling and consumables. It works out to about 60-65% of what 'typical retail' would be.

He's rather more than a garage builder, but yes, I agree we'd be having a different conversation if this had been the work of a Kirk or similar*.

*actually, we wouldn't, because a) I couldn't see it happening and b) I'd be much less willing to compromise in that scenario.

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

I also would like to see an answer to my actual tire width question.

Definitely this too.

Oh, I see you responded with 29mm real width. Hmmm. I guess it really depends how set you were on running a 30-32mm tire. If a slightly fat 28 is what you'll run 90% of the time, I'd be tempted to call it close enough and chalk it up as a learning experience.

Assuming "at cost" is in the ballpark of a production metal frame (Trashcan Venge or CAAD13), you're still doing ok on the money/cost end, I think.