OT - Patriots, again- say it aint so Bill

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by eippo1

Really? Wow. I never got how people get so vehement over sports. Also, stuff like this goes on everywhere. The Vikings got in trouble for heating balls earlier:
http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vi...nthers-vikings

The difference is that with the vikings, a life time suspension of their coaches isn't usually a punishment.

[Len J]

Originally Posted by velomonkey

We all do know that basic science tells us the ball is going to lose air in cold weather. This is why you have to pump up your tires more in cold weather versus warm weather. Here, let me have a NFL kicker explain it to you

http://www.hypun.com/meme/5701/Graha...Flat_Footballs

Probably the reason 11 of 12 were under inflated, by about 1.2 psi, is cause they were all effected by the weather - not because they were all tampered with.

Complaining about this as proof as cheating is about up there with saying Lance cheated cause he aged his tubulars in some basement in France.

It was 51 degrees. Science would say very little of the deflation was caused by temperature. Thanks for playing though.

Len

[Len J]

Originally Posted by velomonkey

"The pressure of a gas of fixed mass and fixed volume is directly proportional to the gas's absolute temperature."

So P/T = Constant

For comparing the same substance under two different sets of conditions, the law can be written as:

P1/T1 = P2/T2

I'm also going to do this in Metric to avoid other potential errors. And I apologize that I am 20 years from doing this sort of work

12.5psi = 86.18kPa ( kilo Pascals)
75F=23.89C = 297.04K
30F=-1.11C = 272.04K

So
86.18/297.04 = P2/272.04

0.29= P2/272.04

P2=78.93kPa

78.93kPa= 11.45PSI

Temperature change from 75 to 30 degrees would result in the balls losing 1 pound of pressure per square inch.

Why don't you all complain that the Pats did a rain dance prior to the game.

But it was 51 degrees at game time not 30.

Len

[buddybikes]

Maybe they had latex bladders to be more comfortable, but leak faster...

[Louis]

All this is so typical of the NFL and all it's rules - everything is blown to be soooo complicated. Next thing you know, all the balls used by both teams will have to be kept in a temperature and humidity controlled bin on the sideline, with the weight, size, pressure, and friction coefficient measured before each play. 100 balls will be used, and rotated in sequentially throughout the game.

(I'm going to end up sounding like Ray and his FRN rants with all this "the NFL rules are too complicated" ranting I do, but I'm right, d@mn it.)

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by Louis

All this is so typical of the NFL and all it's rules - everything is blown to be soooo complicated. Next thing you know, all the balls used by both teams will have to be kept in a temperature and humidity controlled bin on the sideline, with the weight, size, pressure, and friction coefficient measured before each play. 100 balls will be used, and rotated in sequentially throughout the game.

(I'm going to end up sounding like Ray and his FRN rants with all this "the NFL rules are too complicated" ranting I do, but I'm right, d@mn it.)

when a money is involved, things get messed up. When a lot of money is involved things get f'd up. It's complicated because someone found a way to make money off it.

[buddybikes]

Questions - are the pressure gauges "certified" Did they get removed slowly (or inserted slowly) where bit of air got out?

[alessandro]

Originally Posted by verticaldoug

when a money is involved, things get messed up. When a lot of money is involved things get f'd up. It's complicated because someone found a way to make money off it.

Wait--are you talking about football, or the federal reserve?

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by alessandro

Wait--are you talking about football, or the federal reserve?

both

[ergott]

Originally Posted by Louis

All this is so typical of the NFL and all it's rules - everything is blown to be soooo complicated. Next thing you know, all the balls used by both teams will have to be kept in a temperature and humidity controlled bin on the sideline, with the weight, size, pressure, and friction coefficient measured before each play. 100 balls will be used, and rotated in sequentially throughout the game.

(I'm going to end up sounding like Ray and his FRN rants with all this "the NFL rules are too complicated" ranting I do, but I'm right, d@mn it.)

Of just have the NFL supply the footballs instead of the teams. I can't for the life of me figure out why they don't. Every other sport is this way. Even Formula 1 has the tire manufacturer supply the tires.

[juanj]

The practice of who supplies the footballs is to some extent ritualized by quarterback's need to practice with the exact footballs he will throw during a game. I recall reading this article about Eli Manning and I found it a revelation that his game balls undergo a long "conditioning," and there is a person whose sole job is to prepare his footballs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/sp...in-making.html

As some have pointed out, this is different from baseball, where the rules about how much a ball is scuffed are very strict. Baseballs are also prepped before a game, by the way. What I find surprising is how quickly balls are substituted in a baseball game. A pitch in the dirt is not used again, nor is a foul ball, etc. etc. (or perhaps the ball is checked for scuffs and put back into the rotation if it's still playable?)

[velomonkey]

Thanks for the comment on the temp, but I'm trying to go a bit deeper, hang with me. By the way, people, the balls are inflated and then checked with gauges INDOORS!! The game is played OUTDOORS.

Someone elsewhere pointed out that

Pressure gauge= Pressure absolute - Pressure atmosphere
which means I need to do my calculations with absolute pressure to use the Ideal Gas Law

Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi

12.5 + 14.7 = 27.2psi = 187.54 kPA

187.54/297.04 = P2/272.04
0.29= P2/272.04
P2=171.76kPa
171.76kPa= 24.91psi
subtract atmospheric pressure and
24.91-14.7= 10.21psi

!!!!

A ball inflated at 75 degrees to 12.5 psi will be 10.2 psi at 30 degrees!!! This matches the readings by the NFL Officials!!

UPDATE REDUX

Temperature at game time was 50F, which is 282K

187.54/297.04 = P2/272.04
P2=178.07kPa
171.76kPa= 25.82psi
subtract atmospheric pressure and
25.82-14.7= 11.15psi

A ball inflated at 75 degrees to 12.5 psi will be 11.15 psi at 50 degrees!!!

[Ttx1]

Originally Posted by rwsaunders

Now they are saying that the balls were made by Veloflex and rebranded as Wilson...the air loss makes sense to me now.

ok, I lol'd

[bikinchris]

Originally Posted by juanj

The practice of who supplies the footballs is to some extent ritualized by quarterback's need to practice with the exact footballs he will throw during a game. I recall reading this article about Eli Manning and I found it a revelation that his game balls undergo a long "conditioning," and there is a person whose sole job is to prepare his footballs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/sp...in-making.html

As some have pointed out, this is different from baseball, where the rules about how much a ball is scuffed are very strict. Baseballs are also prepped before a game, by the way. What I find surprising is how quickly balls are substituted in a baseball game. A pitch in the dirt is not used again, nor is a foul ball, etc. etc. (or perhaps the ball is checked for scuffs and put back into the rotation if it's still playable?)

Balls pitched in the dirt are often, but not always put into the umpires pouch to either be played or to see if they can be played again.

And 1.15 pounds is a way from the 2 psi the balls were underinflated. BTW, the OTHER teams balls were NOT low on air.
I find it odd that that the Saints, who had the LOWEST rate of roughing and other illegal flags thrown in the NFL were penalized and had their coach suspended for a year, people are trying to defend a coach, QB and team who have been caught before breaking rules.

[Aaron O]

For what it's worth I'm currently listening to former quarterback Shaun King talk about this issue. He has said that every NFL quarterback adjusts the balls whether it's adding a little bit of air, deflating them a little bit or putting a little bit of dirt on them. He does think that spy gate is a much bigger deal.