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  #1036  
Old 06-05-2018, 07:23 PM
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David Kirk David Kirk is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
+1

That video from the UK outfit of Tom Ritchey doing some brazing and casually and humbly talking about his method when asked was really something.

Would love to see something similar from Mr. Kirk. Regardless, I sure do enjoy and appreciate the finished products. Thanks for posting.
I too have seen that video and it's shocking to me. Obviously the end result is good but the method of getting there is so foreign to me. TR works back and forth adding filler where needed and then going back and adding more if that needs to be done. It is a skillful process and at the same time not a precise one....and it's really slow.

I use what many call the "precision fillet brazing" process. I think Keith Bontrager made that name commonplace. The pattern is just like TIG welding and the filler is laid down in one pass and once down that is it. 99.9% of the time I never go back and add anything.....just like TIG work.

When it's time for me to retire (maybe coming sooner rather than later) I'll make a few videos and share them. But for the reasons stated in the post above I'm out of the helping others steal from me game. That sounds so harsh in the light of day but it is what it is.

dave
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  #1037  
Old 06-05-2018, 08:14 PM
ColonelJLloyd ColonelJLloyd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kirk View Post
That sounds so harsh in the light of day but it is what it is.
Makes good sense to me.

And I can definitely appreciate what you're saying about brazing techniques even as someone without that skill.

I first became aware of what fillet brazing was with Jack Taylor frames (and I still really like and admire them), but I can tell there are different levels of what craftsmen care and are able to do.

I'd like to think a fillet brazed Kirk is in the cards for me someday. Thanks again for sharing your work.
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  #1038  
Old 06-05-2018, 11:22 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kirk View Post
Thanks for the kind words.

I think you are referring to the method I use to build a lugged frame (small braze tacks....no nails ever) and the procedure for a fillet bike is much different.

The tubes are all mitered and fit into the jig and then cleaned and readied for brazing. At this point I fully "tin" the joints. This is simply flowing the brazing material into the joint all the way around each joint. This is done in the jig and allowed to cool.

Then the frame is removed from the jig, given a fresh coating of flux and then each joint is filleted. The order of doing this is super important so that the frame will come out dead straight. It took me years to come up with the pattern but it's now solid and the frames end up dead straight without having to be cold-set at all.

For years I shared the details of this openly and if one looks hard it can still be found out there on the webbernet. I no longer share how I do anything in detail. After countless times where other builders have copied and pasted my written words and passed them off as their own I'm all done. I've even had other builders take my process photos and put them on their websites passing them off as their own work. It's too bad really as a high tide raises all boats....and at the same time a pirate steals from us all.

I hope you understand.

dave
I can't imagine what would cause someone to stoop so low as to steal another artist's work, but I guess it happens every day in other arenas, so why not the bike biz.. If I ever stumble on someone trying that crap, you can be sure I'll be raising a flag [insert angry banana mob with pitchforks].
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  #1039  
Old 06-06-2018, 06:50 AM
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AngryScientist AngryScientist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kirk View Post

I hope you understand.
First off, thanks for the response. You are definitely correct, i was [incorrectly] recalling your comments about lug construction with regard to pinning vs tacking. I have done quite a bit of fabrication welding myself, and suspected that there would be a prescribed method to the order of joint brazing to keep the frame straight through the process, but didn't initially get that for fillet construction you are essentially fixing all the joints in place in the jig, then transferring to the work stand for final filleting. I bet it's tricky to get 360 degree coverage of the initial braze material around each joint in the jig, which i assume is far less articulating than the work stand. gravity, and all that...

As with most of the other folks here, i will probably never braze a bicycle frame (maybe a retirement fun project?) and certainly never fillet braze bicycles for profit, so it never occurred to me that anyone would stoop so low as to steal your intellectual property in the form of knowledge, or worse - photographs, etc to use for their own gain. I have the engineering mindset, and always like to understand how things come together and thrive on the details - but i absolutely respect that you should limit what you share in this open space. it is disappointing that others would and have taken advantage of that, but it's the world we live in i suppose.

Thanks again for taking the time to indulge us! Keep up the good work.
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  #1040  
Old 06-08-2018, 01:47 PM
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David Kirk David Kirk is online now
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Stainless fillet flat mount disc mounts.

dave

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  #1041  
Old 06-09-2018, 12:05 AM
roguedog roguedog is offline
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Wow. That is beautiful work. Like jewelry. So clean
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  #1042  
Old 06-09-2018, 04:18 PM
PaMtbRider PaMtbRider is offline
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It will be fun to follow the evolution of this one. Is the Enve fork quick release or thru axle? Going forward I would imagine that thru axle options for wheels will be much greater than the quick release options. Consistent disc alignment is considered one of the benefits of the thru axle design, thoughts?
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  #1043  
Old 06-11-2018, 02:30 PM
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William William is offline
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Dave, your fillet work always gob-smacks me. Soooo smooth and precise...







William
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  #1044  
Old 06-11-2018, 02:32 PM
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David Kirk David Kirk is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaMtbRider View Post
It will be fun to follow the evolution of this one. Is the Enve fork quick release or thru axle? Going forward I would imagine that thru axle options for wheels will be much greater than the quick release options. Consistent disc alignment is considered one of the benefits of the thru axle design, thoughts?
Hey there - thanks for the question.

The Enve fork I'm using will have a 12 mm thru axle and I think this makes sense on a fork meant for disc brakes as it links the two fork tips well and stabilizes things and helps keep the fork from twisting to the side under braking.

I think we'll see most wheels coming with lots of axle options as the only real change that needs to be made are the axle end caps if you want the same hub to work with a thru axle or QR skewer.

I sometimes hear that a thru axle will better locate the wheel resulting in better disc alignment....and I suppose that could be true depending on the quick-release dropout design and how much care the builder puts into the final alignment. If the frame or fork isn't built straight to begin with and the dropout needs to get filed a lot to make the thing straight then the axle can slop around a good bit in the slot.....and this could hurt disc alignment. But frankly a top shelf builder should be able to build the frame or fork so that there's no filing and therefore there would be only one home base for the axle and the disc would align just right, and the same, every time.

Thanks again-

dave
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  #1045  
Old 06-11-2018, 04:02 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kirk View Post
But frankly a top shelf builder should be able to build the frame or fork so that there's no filing and therefore there would be only one home base for the axle and the disc would align just right, and the same, every time.
N=1 -- my Kirk Disc Cross is set up with the narrowest of gaps between rotors and pads in the back (TRP mech disc, and I don't like a lot of lever pull); and I've never had to adjust the back caliper for rubbing after removing the rear wheel and putting it back in...

Would anyone have expected different?
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  #1046  
Old 06-21-2018, 01:00 PM
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David Kirk David Kirk is online now
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The Onesto fillet version of my Montana Road Bike is almost ready to ride. I'm still waiting on the rear derailleur to show but once it's in the build can be wrapped up and I can get this thing dusty.

dave





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  #1047  
Old 06-22-2018, 04:45 PM
skouri1 skouri1 is offline
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I spy some sort of carbon fork on the montana road bike.
Was a thru axle set up not yet optimal in steel? time saver? weight saver? I was under the impression that you gave up on carbon forks a while back...
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  #1048  
Old 06-22-2018, 06:26 PM
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David Kirk David Kirk is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skouri1 View Post
I spy some sort of carbon fork on the montana road bike.
Was a thru axle set up not yet optimal in steel? time saver? weight saver? I was under the impression that you gave up on carbon forks a while back...
Yep - it's extremely rare that I fit a carbon fork to one of my frames. In this case I would have liked to use stainless blades to match the frame but there aren't any stainless blades on the market that are happy with having a disc bolted to one of them. I'm working on it but it will be some time before they are available....or should I say IF they are available.

dave
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  #1049  
Old 06-27-2018, 05:44 PM
d_douglas d_douglas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kirk View Post
Stainless fillet flat mount disc mounts.

dave

The finish of that brake mount looks like something you'd see in a hospital. CRAZY!!!

Dave, have you ever done any welding outside of the bike industry (other than toying with your race cars)??

I've known a few good framebuilders who have built furniture and/or millwork detailing for very highend construction projects. Not surprisingly, they get paid much more to do that than build a bike frame.
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  #1050  
Old 06-27-2018, 06:46 PM
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David Kirk David Kirk is online now
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Something you'd see in a hospital? I assume you meant that as a compliment but I'm having trouble with the whole comparison to sick people

I've done metalwork both in the bike biz and outside of it. It's tempting, seriously tempting at times, to leave the bike gig and go outside where i could no doubt make much more money. One of these days that might happen....but for now i love working on bikes and it's worth it to me.

Thanks for the kind words.

dave
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