OT: for the dog people—and maybe genetics or stats folks—NYT: Has Dog Breeding…

[RWL2222]

…Gone Too Far?

Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...smid=url-share

A long-time dog person, I currently own a Lab (actually, it owns me)— the most recent of a long string of mostly pure-breds, but no show or trial dogs. While I wholeheartedly support the upshot of the article—the headline being that breeding to a defined standard is detrimental—the stats it cites on inbreeding in seem a stretch:

“The average mixed-breed dog’s parents are as closely related as first cousins once removed.”

And on and on with similar statements. (Reminds me my favorite Samuel Clemons line: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.).

My angle on this is necessarily limited to the anecdotal, but this article has me wondering where the next member of the pack is going to come from. How would you pick the next member the pack?

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by RWL2222

How would you pick the next member the pack?

They pick you at the shelter, easy.

Everyone I know with purebred dogs has health issues, and mutts generally have pretty few.

[makoti]

Originally Posted by .RJ

They pick you at the shelter, easy.

Everyone I know with purebred dogs has health issues, and mutts generally have pretty few.

Or from the rescue group, if you want a particular breed.
My chosen breed (Pekingese) has horrible breathing problems because of crazy breeding. Their closely related cousins, the Tibetan Spaniel, was more or less spared but some still have that smashed face.

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by makoti

Or from the rescue group, if you want a particular breed.
My chosen breed (Pekingese) has horrible breathing problems because of crazy breeding. Their closely related cousins, the Tibetan Spaniel, was more or less spared but some still have that smashed face.

My pug's snoring sounded like a snow-blower. Our mutt Annie looks and behaves just like a shih-tzu but her nose is way too long for that breed's standard and she has no snoring or breathing problems. She was picked up living VERY rough in coyote country so nothing is known about her history or breeding. She loves everyone she meets.

[ltwtsculler91]

I could go on about this all day, as we have two Havanese and my wife is on the board of the NY area Havanese club and deeply involved in the national one. She's shown our 3-year old in Conformation (Champion, shown at Westminster, won best puppy at their national show in year 1) and has done agility with our 13 year old since 2015 (Masters level dog, general grumpy old man).

Overall, this is like rim versus disc that both sides will run around throwing out arguments that are more based on emotion than anything and the mixed folks have had a field day since these "Doodles" became popular and expensive. At the end of the day, a RESPONSIBLY BRED pure-breed dog is the best way to guarantee that you're going to get a healthy, well mannered animal. Unfortunately, many folks breeding both are not responsible so you need to do your homework and find a good breeder through a breed club.

Nando is being bred now, and has a few puppies, but all is closely examined for inbreeding and dog health which mixed breeders generally don't do. People love to talk about "inbreeding" in dogs, but the whole process is much closer to racehorses or livestock breeding than popular articles like this make it out to be. Sure there are plenty of irresponsible breeders, and some of the bad clubs will over select for certain traits in the show ring (like German Sheppards or Bulldogs right now) but there is usually big controversy in the breeding world about that and folks shift it back.

Here's some pics of ours, because a dog thread needs them!

Both of our boys recently:



Paco, our 13 year old lovable grump



Nando, our 3 year old little Champion who's now starting agility. No longer in full coat because that was 6 hours a week of work


Now in chill mode:

[christian]

Originally Posted by ltwtsculler91

At the end of the day, a RESPONSIBLY BRED pure-breed dog is the best way to guarantee that you're going to get a healthy, well mannered animal.

Except like, that's exactly what the study doesn't say. Well, it doesn't say anything about manners, and my mutt sits on the couch, so maybe purebreds are better on that department.

[ltwtsculler91]

Originally Posted by christian

Except like, that's exactly what the study doesn't say. Well, it doesn't say anything about manners, and my mutt sits on the couch, so maybe purebreds are better on that department.

Ours love the couch too, but it's more that you get the expected personality and traits for the dog. Havanese are toys and expected to be people friendly clowns which both of ours are, a herding dog like a border collie would be expected to be much more active and need stimulation (their known to herd and nip at people if bored).

There have been big problems with temperament on a lot of these doodle mixes, as you're crossbreeding two obsessive, neurotic type dogs and can end up with some really hard to train dogs that aren't well suited for the oblivious owners and cause problems.

[C40_guy]

Originally Posted by christian

Except like, that's exactly what the study doesn't say. Well, it doesn't say anything about manners, and my mutt sits on the couch, so maybe purebreds are better on that department.

My mutt lies on the couch, and on the bed, and pretty much everywhere else he wants. He clearly understands our guidance on behavior...

Of course as part King Charles Spaniel and part Bichon (English/French royalty dogs) he is the prince of the family.

[stackie]

OMG. Please stop with the adorable dog pics. Makes we want one but we have ptsd from the last rescue dog. We’ve said never again. But, c40, your pup makes me doubt our stance.

Obviously I’m kidding I still offer the neighbors to dog sit their dogs. Kind of like being a grandpa. Send them back at the end of week and no vet bills

Jon

[jadmt]

Originally Posted by stackie

OMG. Please stop with the adorable dog pics. Makes we want one but we have ptsd from the last rescue dog. We’ve said never again. But, c40, your pup makes me doubt our stance.

Obviously I’m kidding I still offer the neighbors to dog sit their dogs. Kind of like being a grandpa. Send them back at the end of week and no vet bills

Jon

got this little guy from a rescue at only 8 or 9 weeks old. had no idea what he was as he came from a boutique breeding hot bed (Merced Ca.) 8 years later I would't sell him for a million dollars. My cat I got from a homeless person outside of walmart for $20 and vet told me he would never be a good cat because he was not weened from his mother so would always be mean. I would sell him for a Million but not any less.....dude seriously has clung to me for 10 years like this. When I get home he runs and wraps his paws around me and pushes his head into me like there is no tomorrow. the dog and cat are best friends. If I could clone my dog and get an exact copy I would do it. I know all dog owners say this but he really is the best dog ever.

[Louis]

Originally Posted by jadmt

got this little guy from a rescue at only 8 or 9 weeks old. had no idea what he was as he came from a boutique breeding hot bed (Merced Ca.) 8 years later I would't sell him for a million dollars. My cat I got from a homeless person outside of walmart for $20 and vet told me he would never be a good cat because he was not weened from his mother so would always be mean. I would sell him for a Million but not any less.....dude seriously has clung to me for 10 years like this. When I get home he runs and wraps his paws around me and pushes his head into me like there is no tomorrow. the dog and cat are best friends. If I could clone my dog and get an exact copy I would do it. I know all dog owners say this but he really is the best dog ever.

What a lucky pair!

[unterhausen]

Our most recent dog was feral, picked up as a puppy by a rescue in Georgia. He was bothering construction workers for food, which is a behavior that continues. He would probably be mad if he knew I make fun of him for being a chihuahua/Australian cattle dog mix. I resolved long ago that we would never have anything but a rescue. It's unfortunate that there are plenty of those.

My wife got connected with a beagle rescue. I help walk dogs on occasion. The number of dogs coming and going is amazing. And the reasons they are there can be pretty sad or infuriating.

[benb]

Originally Posted by ltwtsculler91

At the end of the day, a RESPONSIBLY BRED pure-breed dog is the best way to guarantee that you're going to get a healthy, well mannered animal. Unfortunately, many folks breeding both are not responsible so you need to do your homework and find a good breeder through a breed club.

You realize of course there is literally no way on earth any pure bred dog can *ever* be considered "responsibly bred" from a biological point of view. If it's the same breed there is no dog on earth that is a responsible mate.

The whole article can be summed down to just saying the entire thing is basically illegal everywhere if you tried to do this with humans.

[ltwtsculler91]

Originally Posted by benb

You realize of course there is literally no way on earth any pure bred dog can *ever* be considered "responsibly bred" from a biological point of view. If it's the same breed there is no dog on earth that is a responsible mate.

The whole article can be summed down to just saying the entire thing is basically illegal everywhere if you tried to do this with humans.

Sure, but dogs aren't humans. Compare it to livestock breeding or racehorses and it all looks really similar...

There is responsible breeding from the genetic and health testing that is done beforehand to ensure that there will be no known hereditary conditions passed down. This is how good breeders work, they work with a vet who's trained and make sure that the pair will not produce a genetic defect.

[benb]

Originally Posted by ltwtsculler91

Sure, but dogs aren't humans. Compare it to livestock breeding or racehorses and it all looks really similar...

There is responsible breeding from the genetic and health testing that is done beforehand to ensure that there will be no known hereditary conditions passed down. This is how good breeders work, they work with a vet who's trained and make sure that the pair will not produce a genetic defect.

The only way they can call it responsible is by redefining the word responsible and ignoring biology. They are inbreeding these dogs so badly they are creating new genetic problems that aren't even known yet, so obviously the tests are not sufficient. And they have also redefined away defects into features. If every pug has a breathing problem saying it's not a problem doesn't make it not a problem. Do vets do full-genome sequencing on dogs to try and find a safe match? If they were doing that they would probably never be able to actually find a match of the same breed.

The most inbred populations of humans in the world do not even approach the amount of inbreeding of a deliberate mixed-breed dog. The mixed breed dog is still biologically considered dangerously inbred.

Given that there is no way you can possible respsonsibly breed a "pre-bred" dog that is already at a 0.25 or worse coefficient of inbreeding because there is no other dog of that breed that can realistically be considered a safe mate!

That is the whole basis of the scientific argument.

LOL.. great quote, this is the equivalent of a human saying, "So what I got my sister pregnant, we know it's safe cause neither one of us has gotten thyroid cancer."