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#16
11-17-2019, 08:10 PM
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One of the points the gentleman makes in the video is that the hard earned knowledge and experience he has will most likely die with him. This is sad but true.
I'm sure the same will happen with me - when I retire and/or die the things I learned in 30+ years of framebuilding and 40+ years in the bike biz will go with me. This used to bother me a lot but in time I came to the realization that the work I do doesn't earn enough respect from enough people to justify the prices I'd need to charge if I took on help. I don't say this because I'd need to pay the apprentice but because my overall productivity would go down for a number of years while I spent a sizable chunk of my time teaching.....and the margins are just too low to make that work. The simple fact of the matter is that even though so many look at the work that framebuilders (like so many other craftsman) do and generously heap praise on it not enough people are willing to truly pay for the time needed to build the product and certainly not enough to reflect the so many years it takes to learn to do it well. In the handbuilt bike biz all one needs to do it pull up the NAHBS entry list from 10 years ago and see how many are still building. The number of people that have given up building for a living is staggeringly high and I can assure you they didn't quit because they made so much money that the decided to retire early.....not even close. The only way I've made it for so long, and now feel like one of the 'last men standing', is that I designed my biz from day one such that it would always be done from my home by myself. This means fewer machines and big tools that I'd love in exchange for no rent. If I had to set up a shop out of the house and pay rent I'd be done in 6 months. I feel craftsman and framebuilders are important....the work they do matters to all of us. But generally speaking, we as a society don't value them enough to pay the price needed to give them a solid living where they can not worry about their next meal and also focus on giving back to their niche in terms of training new people to keep the craft alive. I hear from people all the time, particuarly at shows, that tout the health of the f-building niche based on how long a certain builder's queue is. I get it - it makes sense. But a long queue doesn't mean success - not even close. If you lose money on every unit that goes out the door it doesn't matter how long the list is. I see wonderful rando bikes with integrated lights and custom racks and fenders with polished stainless lugs....a bike where the builder has 100 - 200 hours of labor into....and they are charging $4500 of the whole thing. Do the math and one will quickly see that they literally could make more money flipping burgers. Thank goodness so many have spouses that make a solid income and provide health insurance otherwise those guys would be gone....unless of course people start lining up with $15K for a fancy frameset. Don't get me wrong - I enjoy my job and I'm proud of my work....but I'm every bit as proud of the fact that I've been able to keep the lights on and provide the primary income to our household for over 16 years. It's hard, dirty and solidly blue-collar work and a business first and foremost. I wish the guy here in town who make the most stunning wood dining tables you've ever seen could make a real living from it and not moonlight at Home Depot. I wish the job shop metal worker down the road could send his kid to the top end school if the kid wanted. I wish the woman who blows glass at a space-share co-op space in the next town over could afford daycare for her kid....her customers kids are in day care while their executive parents are at work....but her kids hang around the shop and start their education behind right out of the box. That's my rant - thanks for reading.....and thanks for watching the video. It's a stunning piece of work that makes me tear up each and every time I watch it. dave 
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#18
11-17-2019, 10:11 PM
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I would definitely add teachers to the bolded list above. Is any profession more integral to the success of out society and less underpaid/undervalued? But we live in a world that monetizes privacy and narcissism (Facebook, Twitter, etc...) rather than compensating teachers and artisans. Most of the clients are I train are in tech-related fields. It's a complicated problem with no easy solutions.
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#19
11-17-2019, 10:55 PM
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i would add to your list health aides, nursing assistants, and possibly some nurses as well literally cares for the health and well being of society, yet so often undervalued
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#20
11-18-2019, 12:48 AM
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#22
11-18-2019, 08:45 AM
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I see craftspeople selling their work all the time, often it's as you described, worried about the next meal. I'm not sure if it's because they feel like their work isn't worth it and are doing it for the love of their craft, or they haven't paid their dues and work slow, or if the buyers don't think hand work is worth it, forcing the craftsperson to compete with factory automation.
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#23
11-18-2019, 10:24 AM
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You said a mouthful there Dave, my best friend runs a metal shop in Brooklyn, NY. He does architectural installations, stairs, railings, doors, etc. and he has a hard time hiring good help and realistically contemplating ever retiring...god forbid he is ever seriously injured.
I know it is not the only issue you raise, but what jumps out to me is what we in the U.S. are expected to spend on healthcare, childcare, etc. I know it boarders on politics talk, but if you balanced out that nearly $12,000 average spent indirectly or directly per U.S. family on healthcare, and funded childcare, both things done by most industrial countries, it would allowed way more people to be self employed without fear of being bankrupted by any health crisis. All of it, the video, your story about the true cost of building luxury bikes, my friend's metalwork career, it all make me sad...and fearful for this country's future.
__________________
Friends don't let friends ride junk!
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#24
11-18-2019, 10:41 AM
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I work for a employee-owned architecture/engineering/construction/cabinetry/renewables firm. Our good trades subs have trouble finding good HVAC techs, electricians, plumbers, etc., even though these are good paying jobs. We've had three of our five carpentry foremen retire in the past couple of years, with an incredible wealth of experience. Of our four cabinet shop folks, only one is under 60.
I work daily with a 40 year old who is French and was educated as a plumbing/heating/solar tradesperson in the Compagnons de Devoir program. Eight years of schooling, both field and classroom. I've never met an American in the HVAC field remotely as skilled as he is, and he's a better engineer than 95% of the engineers I've worked with in 40 years (I'm a mech engineer by licensure.) I feel really fortunate to work with him, as I have someone to pass on my experience to. I have another "mentee", totally different education path, about the same age, degrees in architecture and engineering. He's always hungry for learning stuff hands-on. Between the two of them I feel there will be an ongoing benefit to the field when I hang it up. The other observation in the video, about computers - the ubiquity of computers in engineering education seems to have resulted in a generation of engineers without much hands-on experience, which is invaluable to both understanding and appreciating the tradespeople who implement the systems they design.
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#26
11-18-2019, 11:14 AM
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As you might imagine I've spent more time than most thinking about this issue. Unlike some I don't think this is a bike-biz thing - I feel that if you were to lurk on handbuilt furniture or custom saddle/tack forums that you'd see something very similar.
I think the low pay earned by all but a very, very few in the handbuilt bike industry can be attributed to a few different things....in no particular order - - the deep understanding of what goes into something handmade just isn't there in our current society. It used to be that more people dabbled in making something and this gave them a little insight into what it takes for a pro to turn out professional work. It takes real skill and lots of time and most people envision a lever being pulled and a frame sliding out of a complicated machine and into the box with its shipping label already applied. My neighbor has a doctorate degree (bio-med) and when he first heard what I did for a living he said he wanted to come over some time and "watch you make one". Very cool he was interested. When I told him that it takes the better part of a week he was simply puzzled. He eventually came over once and stayed about 20 minutes before proclaiming "that looks like really hard work" and then moved on. Not what he expected. If he couldn't grasp all the time and effort and skill involved how could be justify the cost? - framebuilders, like many craftsmen, don't value their own work and time as they should. I can't fully put my finger on why this is but it certainly is. I've advised lots of builders over the years and invariably the most important topic is pricing. I ask them to add up the hours they spend on a frame and set an hourly rate to come up with the labor dollars. Then add up all the materials and add to that the overhead and come up with a final price. The price is almost always much higher than what they have been charging. One would think this might prompt many to raise their prices to a living wage but it almost never does. In the end most will tell me that they "just didn't feel right about charging so much". I have no cure for this. I have seen top shelf builders put 200 hours(!) into a super fancy frame and then sell if for $5000. At first glance this doesn't seem bad but when you consider that all the metal for the frameset cost them about $700 and the paint (with lots of masking for fancy stainless lugs) is a solid $1000 which leaves $3300. Add to this the cost of liability insurance per bike ($80ish), shipping to/from paint ($100), expendables like blades and sanding stuff ($70 per frame) and we are now down to $3050. Now divide that by 200hrs and you get $15/hr. I can walk into the McDonalds here and make more than that and this doesn't even consider major expenses like rent and power. Looked at another way the builder can make a bike a month and for this pocket $3000 gross (not net).....now pull out $1000/month rent and you're now looking at closer to $2000/month for their time and skill. And if they have worked 7 days a week trying to sell enough of these on social media they will be able to build 10 a year. This makes $20K a year. This is very rough and generalized but the numbers are not far off. So the guy posting that awesome rando bike with all the bells and whistles is making less than the person who hands you your lunch through the drive through window. - - A number of years ago veteran builder Brent Steelman said publicly that he was quitting because he couldn't make a living. There was much outcry - "you can't quit! We love your bikes!" - and as a last ditch effort he doubled his prices so that he could make ends meet and he sold just a few before the orders died up. He now sells classic Oriental Rugs and makes MUCH more money. His efforts were driven home in a big way to every f-builder in the USA. We all learned a lesson. - One reason people price their goods the way they do is that they have a perceived place in the hierarchy of their niche. In other words if the top guys are charging $XXXX this means that they need to charge less. This makes sense. But there is an issue - so many of the builders we revere in the USA do not need to make their living from f-building. Many have family money and others have spouses who earn a solid check and health insurance so these guys can set their prices artificially low. Don't get me wrong....if you have old money good for you. I wouldn't mind having some family money to live on while making artisan bikes. The same with those whose wives are highly paid - good for them. But....(you knew there was a 'but') if they set the ceiling at $4500 for the very most sought after frames the newer guys need to take much less. It's a race to the bottom. There's no way these guys can make a living....they can't charge more than the top guys and they can't live on considerable less. Rock and a hard place. ------------------------------------------ One thing I've learned over the decades is that it's a real turn-off for regular folks and potential clients to read stuff like this. Most like to think that everyone's doing well and they can ogle their handmade goods and praise the high level of skill and it feels good. We enjoy it as spectators and fans if you will. Thinking about the truth of the matter that most builders are not doing well and that so very many have called it quits or are working at bike shops or Lowes on the side to make ends meet is a bummer. Most understandably don't want to hear it - it ruins the storybook image of the craftsman happily working away while their family is enjoying a modest home and a good meal. So it's with no small amount of apprehension that I post this. I only feel confident in doing so because my reputation is well established and I can take the sizeable risk in doing so. I'm sorry to be a downer but the reality on this side of the fence isn't as it should be....or how it needs to be to be lasting.. The handbuilt niche is shrinking. The number of units is down and the number of suppliers (not understanding how little money there is to be made) is up. This is of course unsustainable. Things are going to get really small in the future and many will wonder what happened. I don't know what, if anything, can be done about it but I know the future is not so bright that we'll need to wear shades. Thank you as always for reading. dave
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#27
11-18-2019, 11:16 AM
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I'm yes and no on this stuff.. some of it is looking backwards without looking forwards.
His fabrication techniques are fine to let die if a new process is invented that obsoletes the way he's doing things. He mentioned laser cutting has already obsoleted his skills for large scale production, and that laser cutting produces an amazing result, but that he works on jobs that are too small for it to be worthwhile to set up laser cutting. Well the flipside is he might not have learned to program the laser cutter. If his skills die out, someone else will figure out how to rapidly program a laser cutter to do 1-piece jobs. Someone from a younger generation might be more enthusiastic about figuring things out that way. The space program & welding were mentioned. I've read a fair amount about this, one of the interesting ones was talk about building a new Saturn V. NASA was absolutely sure you can't hire enough skilled welders to build the Saturn 5 again the way it was built in the 60s. But the engineers can adapt the design to build it without an army of skilled welders, so if they really wanted to build one they can still do it. Just a question of updating the manufacturing to reflect current methods. I think an awful lot of this stuff is your environment. I think a lot of these really skilled machinists/tradespeople probably do have the natural talent/intelligence to be engineers too. Your background growing up is going to influence which way you go. Unfortunately it seems like you need to be born a bit more into privilege to go the engineering route. We have a history of this stuff in my Dad's family where there were 2 or 3 generations of skilled trades & then my Dad ended up going to college with no support from his father to become an engineer. In the 60s you could go to college & afford it even if your parents refused to sign the financial aid paperwork or help out with tuition. But my Dad went and got his BS & MS in Mechanical engineering and obviously supported me going to college & my siblings going to college. Out of 4 kids 2 of us are engineers and one is a scientist. Today if your parents refused to help you I don't see how you get through college in engineering unless you're like top 0.01% of HS students and end up with a free ride somewhere. Everything is just so damn expensive. Flipside is I think schools are not doing a good job preparing/encouraging students to think about the trades OR engineering/science. The "tech" stuff being done in high schools is not the right kind of stuff, no different from if you had really bad shop class. Interesting Serotta really tried to move into all this hyper modern manufacturing & got it wrong. But I wonder what happens when stuff moves a bit further forward. It's going to be really interesting if 3D printing suddenly makes custom bikes feasible for a Trek or Specialized at scale.
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#28
11-18-2019, 12:18 PM
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That said, the post raises just as many questions as it answers. I assume most people have a frame built with you because of your reputation, not because of pricing. If someone is going to spend $3,000 on a frame, than I'm guessing that they will fork over a few hundred extra dollars to have that frame built by someone they really trust/like/want to work with. I selected two frame builders to work with. One has a sterling reputation, and the other (who is not as well known) seemed like an incredibly cool person. Those were the two factors that went into my decision. In your experience, if a builder charging $3,000 for a frame, and another builder is charging $500 more, will that be the dealbreaker? I do understand that shops (Speedvagen, Moots for example) that have numerous employees have to take that into consideration for pricing. I choose to work with "one-man" operations.
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#29
11-18-2019, 12:58 PM
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I see a few things from my side of the fence. Over time most of this stuff has gotten better but it's not altogether gone. - I have people express general interest with an email or a call. We talk/write extensively going over what they want. I even see them post online how they love my work. And then the deal is never done. This is of course how it works....I talk with lots of people and build only a few bikes so that's natural. At the same time I see the very same person will post photos of their brand new brand X frame that just happens to be the type of build I was talking with them about. They understandably chose someone that will work for less. More than once the client chose another builder, had trouble with the quality of the work and then called me to ask what they should do about it. This does not make my day. - In my very early days, when I needed each and every sale or I'd not make the mortgage, I'd have a potential client come to me and ask what I would build for them. They pushed and I stupidly relented and I would design their bike without a deposit. Then they would take that design to someone who would work for less and have it built. This happened a few times until I changed my policy and I no longer do any design work without a deposit - full stop. I still get asked but I say no and usually I never hear from this person ever again. - One time, about 15 years ago, I had a guy ask if I'd build a frame with Sachs lugs. At the time I did so that was no problem. I was them asked if he could have it painted flam red and white (Sachs colors) and I told him that while we can paint it most any color that yes we could paint it those colors if he liked. I was then asked if I could leave the Kirk decals off - "I like a very clean bike" - was what I was told. I told him no. He obviously wanted a bike from a different builder who was more expensive than me at the time. He wanted a Sachs for less. I always suspected he was going to try to fit it with Sachs logos so that he could have a Sachs but I had no way to prove this. Once I told him 'no' on the artwork deal I never heard from him again. One can do the math on this one. I could go on and on but you get the point. So yes....I don't think it's usually about the amount of money being spent but it's about the idea of getting a deal. If I suddenly offered frames for $100 I'd get offers of $75. Human nature. People like to think they got top shelf goods for bargain basemen prices. We all like a deal. On the other hand without full fledged support the choices for a handbuilt bike will continue to dwindle and more and more will get real jobs that pay better and have health insurance. We can't have it all. dave
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#30
11-18-2019, 01:16 PM
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I really appreciate the business side being brought up too.
Totally different industry (independent video games) but it reminds me of this recent article by a guy who runs a game development company with his wife... he explains how the business decisions dictate what the games look like because he doesn't want to cover an artists salary and adding even a single extra employee could sink the whole thing. https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Jeff..._Like_Crap.php I'd love to run my own business but it's stuff like this that makes it so hard. I'm sure I'd enjoy building software way more if I was in charge of it myself.. but the business model stuff is daunting without a killer product idea. And unlike bikes a piece of software has a ridiculous huge cost to build item #1 and then near 0 cost for every additional copy... so you really have to be able to make a leap to start.
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