Peter Attia protocol and fitness measurement

[benb]

VO2 is probably meaningless here because just about everyone on the site probably has a much higher than normal VO2 for their age anyway.

So pat yourself on the back, you're probably doing well just because you like to ride a bike, regardless of exactly how you ride your bike.

[teleguy57]

Originally Posted by John H.

I love watching, reading and listening to Peter Attia....

...I think that many would find that his "zone 2" pace is more like tempo. Not a bad thing if you are riding 60-90 minutes 3-4x per week with no speed goals.
But too hard if you are trying to hold that pace for long rides and also integrate in harder interval sessions.

I was delighted to find this Attila video of him doing Z2 to give us mere mortals who read all the coaches/trainers/etc and are still wondering if we're in the right ballpark. And one doesn't need a PM or even HRM to do it (although they may help quantify progress)

[reuben]

Originally Posted by teleguy57

I was delighted to find this Attila video of him doing Z2 to give us mere mortals who read all the coaches/trainers/etc and are still wondering if we're in the right ballpark. And one doesn't need a PM or even HRM to do it (although they may help quantify progress)

Huh. If that's Z2, then I must be doing a lot of Z1 on the trainer. I don't get wrapped around the axle with that stuff, but I thought that Z2 was supposed to allow a more relaxed conversation.

The Marlboro hat is either awesome or insane, not sure which.

[MXLeader]

What strikes me most about the Attia healthspan protocols is the underlying fact that as we age through our 70’s the loss of muscle mass (sarcopenia) accelerates. Attia says the science isn’t clear exactly what all the contributing factors are but stresses that going into your 70’s with high muscle mass is important to quality of life in our 80s and hopefully or 90s. He touts the benefits of strength training along with cardiovascular VO2 Max and zone 2 training, all of which help develop more and healthier muscle mitochondria, or at least stave off their eventual decline.

So yeah, if you’re cycling several days a week with some real hard efforts you’re doing great things for your health. But if you are concerned about falling off that sarcopenia cliff in your 70s or have underlying metabolic issues or atherosclerosis issues, his broader healthspan protocols and reasoning may be worth a look. The nice thing is that the exercise benefits can be achieved in 10 hours a week.

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by reuben

Huh. If that's Z2, then I must be doing a lot of Z1 on the trainer. I don't get wrapped around the axle with that stuff, but I thought that Z2 was supposed to allow a more relaxed conversation.

The Marlboro hat is either awesome or insane, not sure which.

Haven't watched the video, but Z2 is pretty easy to define.



Attia is very smart but I always saw his videos as going incredibly deep, narrow and tending toward obscure. It resonates with his audience, so kudos.

To the original question. From a training perspective, VO2Max has some relevance to the way I train as power at VO2Max is a reasonably practical limiter on threshold... but if what I just said makes no sense to you.... then you can look at the number, smile and then move on.

I think, like you realise, Attia's prime audience is men who haven't taken the best care of themselves and are now are hitting the stage in life where mortality becomes real. And it sounds like you're taking care of yourself, so pat yourself on the back and keep on keeping on

[reuben]

Well, I thought there were originally 4 zones, then 5 a few years later. I guess now we're up to 7.

[steamer]

Originally Posted by reuben

Huh. If that's Z2, then I must be doing a lot of Z1 on the trainer. I don't get wrapped around the axle with that stuff, but I thought that Z2 was supposed to allow a more relaxed conversation.

The Marlboro hat is either awesome or insane, not sure which.

The Z2 work that Attia and others espouse makes conversation possible without much gasping, but it should be a bit uncomfortable to talk. But if you attempt to speak for, say 8 to 10 seconds (or more) continuously, without pausing here and there to breathe, you will start to gasp a bit. In terms of RPE, it should be a 3 or 4 (out of 10), or about 12-13 on the Borg (6-20) scale.

The top of Z2 is the target - really the limit you shouldn't exceed. Doing it by HR, if you know your maximum HR (via riding experience) and your resting HR, then the top of Z2 HR is roughly = (.65)(Max-Resting)+Resting. If you don't know your max via experience, you could use 211-(age)(.64), but all formulas for this will be off for a lot of the population, so you are probably better off using the talk test or RPE rather than a calculation, to determine your target HR.

When doing Z2 training you don't want to exceed the Z2 target / limit that your come up with, but you don't want to be more than 5-10 bpm lower than that either. Too low and you won't get much benefit (although most people have the opposite problem of going too hard).

[steamer]

Originally Posted by jimoots

Haven't watched the video, but Z2 is pretty easy to define.

Not everyone's system of zones line up. And apparently there is a third RPE scale (0-7; as evidenced by Coggan's table) that I didn't know about too.

[Marvinlungwitz]

The JAMA study he often cites did not actually did not measure VO2, his comments on the study are somewhat misleading.

Standard exercise testing used to diagnose heart disease was used and analyzed retrospectively. Exercise duration from the standard protocols led to estimated METs. (Although it’s true that VO2 can then be estimated from METs by a 3.5 multiplier - estimation from an estimation).


https://peterattiamd.com/how-does-vo...ith-longevity/


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2707428

[Spoker]

If long daily rides in the sun at conversation pace are making Mathieu vdP fly (if I believe the reports), it will be good enough for me.

[5oakterrace]

Attia's purpose is to get folks to 80,90 with vitality - call it pop and ginger.

A lot of what he recommends I do at age 68. Big whoop. What I learned is that if you stop for 3,4,5, 6 weeks - you lose it. I carry 40lb bags of wood pellets up from our basement. I do one bag in October. Barely. By January I can manage 2 bags. I lost all that strength over the summer. That was my wake up call

Attia is really speaking major lifestyle change. Major, every week. As you age you lose it quicker. How many will do this? We have a public health crisis with weight control.

Well.... How many 80,90 year olds do you see with vitality? Not many. It is depressing given our human potential.

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by reuben

Well, I thought there were originally 4 zones, then 5 a few years later. I guess now we're up to 7.

Those are what im familiar with rewinding to my racing years > 10 years ago.

Agree z2 should not encourage relaxed conversations. That is recovery or z1.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by steamer

The Z2 work that Attia and others espouse makes conversation possible without much gasping, but it should be a bit uncomfortable to talk. But if you attempt to speak for, say 8 to 10 seconds (or more) continuously, without pausing here and there to breathe, you will start to gasp a bit. In terms of RPE, it should be a 3 or 4 (out of 10), or about 12-13 on the Borg (6-20) scale.

The top of Z2 is the target - really the limit you shouldn't exceed. Doing it by HR, if you know your maximum HR (via riding experience) and your resting HR, then the top of Z2 HR is roughly = (.65)(Max-Resting)+Resting. If you don't know your max via experience, you could use 211-(age)(.64), but all formulas for this will be off for a lot of the population, so you are probably better off using the talk test or RPE rather than a calculation, to determine your target HR.

When doing Z2 training you don't want to exceed the Z2 target / limit that your come up with, but you don't want to be more than 5-10 bpm lower than that either. Too low and you won't get much benefit (although most people have the opposite problem of going too hard).

This is helpful, thanks

[benb]

Originally Posted by MXLeader

What strikes me most about the Attia healthspan protocols is the underlying fact that as we age through our 70’s the loss of muscle mass (sarcopenia) accelerates. Attia says the science isn’t clear exactly what all the contributing factors are but stresses that going into your 70’s with high muscle mass is important to quality of life in our 80s and hopefully or 90s. He touts the benefits of strength training along with cardiovascular VO2 Max and zone 2 training, all of which help develop more and healthier muscle mitochondria, or at least stave off their eventual decline.

So yeah, if you’re cycling several days a week with some real hard efforts you’re doing great things for your health. But if you are concerned about falling off that sarcopenia cliff in your 70s or have underlying metabolic issues or atherosclerosis issues, his broader healthspan protocols and reasoning may be worth a look. The nice thing is that the exercise benefits can be achieved in 10 hours a week.

It might be "bro science" but I've always considered myself a "hard gainer", I shed weight easy, harder to put on muscle. It made cycling attractive cause my body did the right thing more easily for cycling.

I feel like the effect of it being even easier to lose mass is already noticeable in my 40s. I don't think it's any coincidence at all that nearly all coaching/books/whatever all want us weight training more by 40+. None of us are going anywhere in racing after 40, time to concentrate on fundamentals and being healthy. Leave the "get really freaking skinny" stuff to 20 and 30-something elite racers.

I got really skinny again in my early 40s for some big cycling stuff and it really didn't go over that well with my body like it did when I was younger and could just bounce back from it.

[Likes2ridefar]

Is yoga sufficient for strength training?

I’m in my 40s and have access to a gym but don’t go. I prefer yoga 4 or so days a week at home for 30 minutes and usually ride the same days as well (I ride at least an hour close to 7 days a week)

I find it easy to shed weight and add muscle mass still at 46 but have horrible flexibility and many aches and pains which are especially obvious if I stop yoga.