Campy Rant

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Dave

You really can't do a decent job of cleaning a chain on the bike without getting solvent and dirt into the RD pulley bushings and onto the chainrings and sprockets.

Wiping off the exterior does not cleaning the area inside the roller, where the actual wear occurs.

I put my chains through two solvent baths. The first to first to get the majority of the dirt off and a second to remove the remaining dirty solvent.

I use a home brew wax based lube that is very clean, but dirt will still get inside the chain after enough use. I probably clean mine every 500 miles. I also alternate the use of several chains, so I don't toss chains prematurely in an attempt to avoid new-chain skip. Each chain can be used far longer, and there will be no new-chain skip.

Degreaser, brushes and some elbow grease. Throw it on the stand, give it a good scrub and rinse it all off. It ain't hard.

[Lionel]

Originally Posted by Dave

You really can't do a decent job of cleaning a chain on the bike without getting solvent and dirt into the RD pulley bushings and onto the chainrings and sprockets.

Wiping off the exterior does not cleaning the area inside the roller, where the actual wear occurs.

I put my chains through two solvent baths. The first to first to get the majority of the dirt off and a second to remove the remaining dirty solvent.

I use a home brew wax based lube that is very clean, but dirt will still get inside the chain after enough use. I probably clean mine every 500 miles. I also alternate the use of several chains, so I don't toss chains prematurely in an attempt to avoid new-chain skip. Each chain can be used far longer, and there will be no new-chain skip.

Simply insane.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by jzinckgra

With EPS or mechanical? Do you have direct experience with this? I know on my 11S I created a nice groove due to the KMC link rubbing the inner derailleur cage.

EPS has the same chain requirement as mechanical. I've put Campy Chorus 12 on two bikes in July of last year. I've used both the KMC and SRAM eagle link. The eagle link fits as well as any quick link possibly could. I've had no problem with it at all.

I've also used the SRAM AXS 12 chain with no problem.

[cgolvin]

Originally Posted by jzinckgra

With EPS or mechanical? Do you have direct experience with this? I know on my 11S I created a nice groove due to the KMC link rubbing the inner derailleur cage.

I'm using the SRAM Eagle link on my mechanical Chorus 12 and haven't noticed any rubbing on the cage. Then again, the group's pretty new so I haven't had reason to disassemble the RD so I haven't examined the cage for any marks.

[merckx]

Batteries not included.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Degreaser, brushes and some elbow grease. Throw it on the stand, give it a good scrub and rinse it all off. It ain't hard.

It's not hard, but doesn't clean the chain where it's needed. The chain may look pretty, but the inside will still be gritty.

[YesNdeed]

Why does the SRAM connector link take the curved shape, while the rest of the 12s links don't?

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Dave

It's not hard, but doesn't clean the chain where it's needed. The chain may look pretty, but the inside will still be gritty.

If it is it's not enough to make a material difference in my experience versus dunking in an ultrasonic tank at every turn.

Chain lasts basically the same amount of time for a lot less headache. If Campy wanted us pulling the chains off repeatedly to clean, they'd be giving us a way to do that. If the engineers in Vicenza don't think it's necessary, fine by me.

[Lionel]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

If it is it's not enough to make a material difference in my experience versus dunking in an ultrasonic tank at every turn.

Chain lasts basically the same amount of time for a lot less headache. If Campy wanted us pulling the chains off repeatedly to clean, they'd be giving us a way to do that. If the engineers in Vicenza don't think it's necessary, fine by me.

Yeah, seriously. Who has time to keep 3 chains per bike and alternate them every 500 miles. Come on.

[weiwentg]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

If it is it's not enough to make a material difference in my experience versus dunking in an ultrasonic tank at every turn.

Chain lasts basically the same amount of time for a lot less headache. If Campy wanted us pulling the chains off repeatedly to clean, they'd be giving us a way to do that. If the engineers in Vicenza don't think it's necessary, fine by me.

An alternative interpretation is that Campy and Shimano just didn't think it through. They didn't realize that you could benefit from cleaning the chains off the bicycle. So Campy doesn't include quick links, and Shimano only recently included them (and doesn't rate them for repeated use). I mean, it's fine to clean the chain on the bike, but you can get a more thorough clean inside the chain with an ultrasonic cleaner. Maybe that's worth 1-2 watts. Maybe that's not worth it to many people, but it's worth it to some.

Side note: YBN makes quick links, and they rate them for use up to 5x per link. Here's an Amazon link to their 12s links. That said, a bunch of us have probably re-used Shimano or SRAM links without having them explode.

[jzinckgra]

Originally Posted by weiwentg

An alternative interpretation is that Campy and Shimano just didn't think it through. They didn't realize that you could benefit from cleaning the chains off the bicycle. So Campy doesn't include quick links, and Shimano only recently included them (and doesn't rate them for repeated use). I mean, it's fine to clean the chain on the bike, but you can get a more thorough clean inside the chain with an ultrasonic cleaner. Maybe that's worth 1-2 watts. Maybe that's not worth it to many people, but it's worth it to some.

Side note: YBN makes quick links, and they rate them for use up to 5x per link. Here's an Amazon link to their 12s links. That said, a bunch of us have probably re-used Shimano or SRAM links without having them explode.

I don't understand, why is there a limit on reusing the quicklinks? Are they made less strong then a regular link? Is it because there is an increase chance with each resuse that the link pops apart?

[Dave]

A Campy 12 chain measures about .204 inch across the pins. A SRAM eagle measures .207 and it's quick link about .209. It's common for a quick link to be a hair wider than the rest of the links and may have a bit more clearance between the inner and outer links.

Differences amounting to the thickness of a piece of paper shouldn't cause any problems with the RD.

Don't make the mistake of using the AXS quick link with a Campy chain. It's too narrow and will bind when assembled.

A new chain will have a clearance between the inner and outer plates of .004-.008 inch when new. Feeler gauges can be used to measure the clearance. That clearance will increase considerably, as the chain wears.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by jzinckgra

I don't understand, why is there a limit on reusing the quicklinks? Are they made less strong then a regular link? Is it because there is an increase chance with each resuse that the link pops apart?

There's an intentional area of interference, between the pin and the groove that it snaps in to, that keeps the link from coming apart. That's why they make special pliers to remove those links. If reused too many times, the groove wears, so there is no snap to it, upon assembly. It may then come apart, under the right conditions.

The only link that does not use an interference fit is the Wipperman Connex. It's got a special shape that keeps the link in place. It must be installed in the correct direction, to work properly. It can be taken apart as often as desired, for the life of the chain and requires no tool to remove it.

[jzinckgra]

Originally Posted by Dave

There's an intentional area of interference, between the pin and the groove that it snaps in to, that keeps the link from coming apart. That's why they make special pliers to remove those links. If reused too many times, the groove wears, so there is no snap to it, upon assembly. It may then come apart, under the right conditions.

The only link that does not use an interference fit is the Wipperman Connex. It's got a special shape that keeps the link in place. It must be installed in the correct direction, to work properly. It can be taken apart as often as desired, for the life of the chain and requires no tool to remove it.

Thanks, makes total sense. I think you mentioned earlier that Connex does not make a Campy compatible quick link?

[C40_guy]

Originally Posted by weiwentg

An alternative interpretation is that Campy and Shimano just didn't think it through. They didn't realize that you could benefit from cleaning the chains off the bicycle.

Another interpretation is that we are the lunatic fringe who think/care about these things, and the major manufacturers are marketing to the great unwashed (or uncleaned).

Yea, cleaning parts off the bike probably is more effective than cleaning them onbike, but that would just be another reason for Joe Shopper to skip the purchase entirely.

Don't assume that the manufacturers are making these decisions in your best interest.