Roger Miliken Crit Crash

[redir]

The general rule of thumb is if my bars are in front of you then I own the space. That's why we have brakes after all. If you cannot beat the guy to the corner then back off. Nothing I hate more then guys jamming inside corners. That corner came up and that dude decided to push his way in rather then admit that he didn't have ownership to that position and back off.

If you look up at the moment that guy first reached out to push the other guy he did not have ownership of that spot and could have clearly backed out of it. And again the USAC rules are there for that reason. Don't touch anyone. Of course a friendly pat on the back will be ignored and should be ignored.

[wernerherzogsid]

The most immutable law of the physical universe is that two objects cannot occupy the same space. It is the bedrock upon which our corporeal existence rests, and one that makes itself evident most clearly in a style of bicycle racing known as criteriums.

Both men -- unnamed in this unflinching, handlebar-level cinema verite -- until this point had no notion every instant of lives would culminate in this primal, pleating desire to occupy the same space in a crowded pack of bicycle racers. Conflict is inevitable. One pushes, the other leans. Crowding is met with crowding, and the tension builds to an awful crescendo of violence. A push, and a crash to the Earth. Then a scream, shouted in vain, brings to sharp relief the despair both the fallen rider and the viewer feel at the close to this scene.

Two men find each other during a corner of an anonymous bicycle race, and we all leave the moment forever altered on our courses to destiny.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by 72gmc

This is a much more succinct way to say what I was trying to say. White jersey guy moved up inside relative to orange jersey guy, but wasn't far enough forward/alongside to establish position, and stuck his arm out instead of backing out.

Except that White Jersey wasn't moving up. Orange Jersey was moving back. When White Jersey appears in frame, he is directly behind another rider in white, so he couldn't have been moving up alongside Orange Jersey anyway. If you want to blame anyone, blame the riders that squeezed out Orange Jersey and force him to move into the riders to his right (and in particular, the one that chopped Orange Jersey's front wheel).

[GParkes]

Just an observation..........some guys have mentioned "Orange Man" wasn't managing his front wheel and it was overlapped, yes it was. BUT, at the :47 second mark of the video, "White Guy" has his front wheel even (overlapped) with "Orange Man's" rear wheel. Given the former, then "WG" wasn't managing his front wheel either, except for reaching forward and out. Some have stated "OM" should have backed off, ergo, the same logic would apply to "WG". You can also see maybe 18" (more?) of space between (laterally) the rear/front wheels of the riders. Yet the arm out?

If "WG" tapped brake, "OM" slides right, and "WG" sits on his wheel and uses him for leadout, etc...... Easy to armchair quarterback.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Because anyone who would deliberately crash a competitor in a race, knowing it could result in serious injury, clearly has issues. I wouldn't trust someone who demonstrates this kind of behavior, on or off the bike.

Bike racing can be physical but deliberately putting someone else in danger in this manner is way, way over the line.

If you read my posts, I don’t think it WAS deliberate...heavy handed but he didn’t intentionally ‘take him out’ as has been implied, IMHO...so going further saying he has all sorts of issues OFF the bike w/o having any other info than this video, is a stretch...again, imho,

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by GParkes

Just an observation..........some guys have mentioned "Orange Man" wasn't managing his front wheel and it was overlapped, yes it was. BUT, at the :47 second mark of the video, "White Guy" has his front wheel even (overlapped) with "Orange Man's" rear wheel. Given the former, then "WG" wasn't managing his front wheel either, except for reaching forward and out. Some have stated "OM" should have backed off, ergo, the same logic would apply to "WG". You can also see maybe 18" (more?) of space between (laterally) the rear/front wheels of the riders. Yet the arm out?

If "WG" tapped brake, "OM" slides right, and "WG" sits on his wheel and uses him for leadout, etc...... Easy to armchair quarterback.

As far as overlapping wheels:

Yes, as a general rule it best not to overlap rules. But in the real world, its not that simple. A pack of a riders is a dynamic, ever changing environment. Different parts are speed up or slowing down all the time. The arcs of turns cause riders to travel longer or shorter lines. It is impossible for a rider to never overlap their wheels with riders around them. The goal instead is for riders to keep in synch with the flow of riders moving around them, to guard their front wheels/handlebars by keeping track of the movements of other riders, to make sure they don't interfere with other riders as they shift around with the pack, and to continuously mentally calculate all the possible escape routes (and keep themselves in a position to be able use them) should they find themselves on intersecting paths.

It is not uncommon for riders to crash due to situations which are the making of other riders, who may or may not even be adjacent to the crash. This video is an example. For some reason a part of the pack decided to squeeze to the right, causing some riders to be cut off and get squeezed out of place, putting them into the paths of other riders. Orange Jersey was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, getting squeezed between multiple riders with no easy out. Had any of the several riders around reacted a little differently, this crash might not have happened. But I don't know that I would lay the blame all one person's feet. White Jersey might have reacted differently, but he didn't precipitate this crash.

[tctyres]

Guy in the white jersey is uncomfortable working in close quarters. The illegal bit here is taking his hands off his bars. He's out of his comfort zone. There's plenty of space for him to work. He hasn't even thought about using his shoulders, which is what he should be doing if he were square to orange guy. Guy in orange doesn't follow the half-hearted attack, so people move up around him. This crash doesn't happen without that hand on orange guy. The orange guy should have countersteered right into white jersey's line, protecting his own front wheel and forcing white jersey to brake.

There are a lot of problems in this peloton. The guy taking his hands off his handlebars is just one of them, but it's the illegal one.

What cat is this? There's an attack from the 2nd wheel? Jumpin Jesus on a pogo stick.

Lots of armchairing here. It must be winter.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by wernerherzogsid

The most immutable law of the physical universe is that two objects cannot occupy the same space. It is the bedrock upon which our corporeal existence rests, and one that makes itself evident most clearly in a style of bicycle racing known as criteriums.

Both men -- unnamed in this unflinching, handlebar-level cinema verite -- until this point had no notion every instant of lives would culminate in this primal, pleating desire to occupy the same space in a crowded pack of bicycle racers. Conflict is inevitable. One pushes, the other leans. Crowding is met with crowding, and the tension builds to an awful crescendo of violence. A push, and a crash to the Earth. Then a scream, shouted in vain, brings to sharp relief the despair both the fallen rider and the viewer feel at the close to this scene.

Two men find each other during a corner of an anonymous bicycle race, and we all leave the moment forever altered on our courses to destiny.

Welcome to the forum, Werner! Loved your character in The Mandalorian

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by tctyres

Jumpin Jesus on a pogo stick.

What? I thought he was in a chicken basket.

[gibbo]

As soon as Mr white removed his hand from his bars and intentionally interfered with Mr orange he should be DQ'd. There is "touching" in racing all the time with shoulders and elbows and that is acceptable (to defend your line), but not a push with your hand. This was obvious and intentional interference with MR orange, not cool... :-( If your front wheel is overlapping with someone rear wheel and your are getting squeezed then slow until you are not overlapping instead of causing a crash, simple! With our club races the commissaire would have the discretion to impose a fine and / or a ban depending on if the offender has a history of this behaviour or not.

[HenryA]

Originally Posted by Hindmost

I just finished a short ride and mulling over this thread.

The only way you can legitimately move a guy is shoulder to shoulder. If you don't have position you back out. Yes, guys squeezing in from the outside piss you off. Ultimately, what are you racing for?

When I last raced Masters there is a well-respected guy who as the last lap approached would loudly proclaim, "ok guys, we all have to go to work Monday."

Whole lotta this^^^^^^^^^^.

Having spent 2 days in ICU and a total of a week in the hospital from the same dickish move a couple of bikes in front of me. It was 5 to go and the moves were going off like bottle rockets. I was 5th wheel and all set up then whammmmm!

I have no sympathy for the white jersey guy who pushed with his hand.

I agree the whole field is a bit sketchy, and that rubbing, bumping, elbowing and leaning is part of racing but taking your hand off the bars is dangerous as hell and yes it should be dealt with severely. It borders on an assault.

[Hellgate]

Orange guy let himself get boxed in and overlapped his front wheel. Hand guy saw it coming and was trying preserving space. No news here people...

[simonov]

Originally Posted by wernerherzogsid

The most immutable law of the physical universe is that two objects cannot occupy the same space. It is the bedrock upon which our corporeal existence rests, and one that makes itself evident most clearly in a style of bicycle racing known as criteriums.

Both men -- unnamed in this unflinching, handlebar-level cinema verite -- until this point had no notion every instant of lives would culminate in this primal, pleating desire to occupy the same space in a crowded pack of bicycle racers. Conflict is inevitable. One pushes, the other leans. Crowding is met with crowding, and the tension builds to an awful crescendo of violence. A push, and a crash to the Earth. Then a scream, shouted in vain, brings to sharp relief the despair both the fallen rider and the viewer feel at the close to this scene.

Two men find each other during a corner of an anonymous bicycle race, and we all leave the moment forever altered on our courses to destiny.

Even with this one and only post on this forum, you've left an indelible mark. Just beautiful.

[Hellgate]

Originally Posted by redir

It looked to me like he was trying to grab him to push him back and take his spot. D-Bag move to say the least and he deserves a ban. The rules are clear you are not aloud to touch other riders.

Leaning on shoulders is pretty common. Good clubs will train new racers on a grass field how to lean, touch and bump. It's all part of a fast, tight crit.

[William]

Originally Posted by Hellgate

Leaning on shoulders is pretty common. Good clubs will train new racers on a grass field how to lean, touch and bump. It's all part of a fast, tight crit.

Yes, we did this all the time. Good training.

Orange guy let himself get boxed in and overlapped his front wheel. Hand guy saw it coming and was trying preserving space. No news here people...

Yup.
No matter whether white was right or wrong for putting his arm up, my point was it wasn't a shove or grab as some asserted. Clearly he put his arm up to keep orange from moving into/across him. White's track doesn't vary, orange does and coming across toward him. White has someone next to him and then the curb. Keep watching adn you will see a wheel behind him. Grabbing brakes is going to cause other issues behind him, even soft pedaling could but that might not have prevented orange from going across his own front wheel. A lot of wrong here but I don't see malice.

Lots of armchairing here. It must be winter.

Arm chair quarter backs? You do know you are on a discussion forum right bro!!








W.