Roger Miliken Crit Crash

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by KJMUNC

Crashed guy is a teammate of mine....I wasn't at this race but video came out hours after the crash as those in the pack during the race who saw it occur (even before reviewing the video) felt it was a deliberate take down. Fair to say there's been a lot of chatter and emotions have been running high, but glad to see that so far everyone is taking the high-road re: reporting it to USCF but there's limited hope it will be dealt with appropriately.

The offending racer is being excoriated among the local scene (as expected) and my guess is he'll find it difficult to find friends in the pack any time soon.

What does “dealing with it appropriately” mean? With the limited scope we all have by using the Vimeo alone, the same crash would have occurred had the left hand remained on the handlebars.

This is racing, not a group ride. The only way to avoid these every so often incidents is to install curb feelers on your bicycle and never invade the personal space of others.

[redir]

It looked to me like he was trying to grab him to push him back and take his spot. D-Bag move to say the least and he deserves a ban. The rules are clear you are not aloud to touch other riders.

[prototoast]

1) I read the comments in this thread before watching the video, and based on the comments, I was expecting something much more egregious.

2) With that said, the offending rider clearly did more than just defend his own space, and caused the crash, but it wasn't that far outside the norm for crit racing.

[zap]

Originally Posted by redir

The rules are clear you are not aloud to touch other riders.

Touching is a pretty common occurrence in crit racing. Intentional or not.

[Mark McM]

I've raced a lot of Master's crits, however I wasn't at this race, and the video shows only a small snippet of what happened, so it's hard to make definitive statements based on this video alone. But that's never stopped me from commenting before, so ...

Several commentators have noted that it looked like White Jersey was trying to move forward into a space that wasn't there, but it doesn't appear that way to me. Keeping in mind that "moving forward or back' is relative to the rest of the riders (they're all moving forward afterall), it appears that White Jersey is moving at the same speed as the other riders around and is maintain his position in the pack, and that Orange Jersey is moving back. It appears that this is precipitated as the pack is squeezing all the way to the right side of the road. When this happens, there often isn't room for everyone all in the same place, so inevitably some people get squeezed backwards. Orange Jersey hadn't established his position solidly within the pack, so he is being squeezed backward and to the right. Unfortunately, this isn't leaving room for White Jersey, who would have to move the right to avoid Orange Jersey. However, White Jersey can't move to the right because Blue Jersey is already there (and Blue Jersey can't move to the right because he's already against the curb).

So, White Jersey holds his line and position on the road, and fends off Orange Jersey with his left arm as Orange Jersey slides backward toward him. Unfortunately, now that Orange Jersey can't continue drifting to the right, he gets tangled with the wheel of the rider just ahead of him (who is also slowing and drifting to the right). You'll notice that White Jersey actually is also slowing a bit within the group, just not fast enough for Orange Jersey to be clear of the other riders being squeezed back.

In other words, S*** happens. Maybe, if a few of the riders reacted a bit differently, this would have been just another case of riders getting squeezed and knocked around but staying upright. But in these situations things move fast, and not everyone has the same reactions, and so crashes like these occasionally happen.

[wallymann]

agree with e-richie and others...seems mostly like a racing incident to me. the handsy guy was protecting himself from getting squeezed -- i never saw a hard push.

the guy went down because someone's rear-wheel went into his front wheel -- he would have had more space had he not overlapped.

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Hmm..not sure..this type of pushing happens all the time..just in this case the 'victim' was overlapping his front wheel..It doesn't look like the white jersey guy pushed him that hard, but hard to tell...

[false_Aest]

Nm

[KJMUNC]

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

What does “dealing with it appropriately” mean? With the limited scope we all have by using the Vimeo alone, the same crash would have occurred had the left hand remained on the handlebars.

This is racing, not a group ride. The only way to avoid these every so often incidents is to install curb feelers on your bicycle and never invade the personal space of others.

Yeah, no curb feelers required.....lots of footage from the race and this wasn't the only questionable behavior by the dude in white, so there was some expectation that someone might want to review and decide if this guy should still be racing.

[redir]

Originally Posted by zap

Touching is a pretty common occurrence in crit racing. Intentional or not.

As a CAT 2 licensed racer I know. But I have also been banned for it when someone pushed me and I simply took my hands off the bar for a second to defend against his attack. He got a season ban, I got two weeks.

Here's a well respected pro's opinion (may he RIP).

http://stevetilford.com/2014/06/20/p...ting-in-races/

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by KJMUNC

Yeah, no curb feelers required.....lots of footage from the race and this wasn't the only questionable behavior by the dude in white, so there was some expectation that someone might want to review and decide if this guy should still be racing.

So, we'll disagree. The thread is about this Vimeo rather than lots of footage that no one here can see.

[unterhausen]

I think orange jersey guy was going over one way or another. He overlapped the guy in front of him and there was no space on the side he was on. on edit: the wheel he overlapped was going to the right, into the crashed rider. He was going over. It was 3 wide in the space needed for 2 wide. He failed to protect his front wheel. The push didn't help, but what happened was inevitable, I think

[chiasticon]

Originally Posted by KJMUNC

Crashed guy is a teammate of mine....

is he OK?

[Rusty Luggs]

Originally Posted by redir

As a CAT 2 licensed racer I know. But I have also been banned for it when someone pushed me and I simply took my hands off the bar for a second to defend against his attack. He got a season ban, I got two weeks.

Here's a well respected pro's opinion (may he RIP).

http://stevetilford.com/2014/06/20/p...ting-in-races/

So have raced a bunch, never higher than Cat 3, still race masters. I am in Tilford's camp on this - contact has always been something you avoid from the way I learned the sport. Hands belong on the bars. Incidental contact happens but IMHO if you are initiating contact, you are doing it wrong. Like traveling in the NBA though.... has become accepted. Think its BS personally. USAcycling penalties for pulling/pushing among riders, and even dangerous riding pretty tame, just Relegation/DQ in the rule book.
I have certainly witnessed worse/more dangerous pushes than that video that went unpunished in any way, not seen by officials, before cameras common.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by saab2000

It didn't look like a crash. It looked like a deliberate takedown. It's not the same thing. Bike racing isn't the NHL or pro "wrestling".

In a Pro/1/2 crit it's kinda like the NHL, in a masters race probably not.

I have my riders practice contact and wheel touching on grass so they know how to handle it. It's also a lot of fun...

[William]

As someone who has done a lot of crit racing back in the day I seriously can't remember one race at all where touching didn't happen. One of the things I loved about it was the close contact and riding skill it took to to stay upright at speed.

Hard to see with the riders jockeying for position, but don't just watch the riders, look at the wheel lines of travel.

I'm going to throw out a different perspective after watching the slow-mo section of the video multiple times...focus on the rider in front of Orange right before he goes down. It appears to me that white put out an arm to brace and prevent orange from pinching him between orange and the rider on the other side of him. At the moment there is contact, the rider in front of orange veers in...watch his rear wheel. Note that orange's wheel line doesn't change (which it would had he been pushed). He had over lapped the rear wheel of the rider in front of him, rider in front unintentionally hooked him as he moved right. At the same time white's arm is bracing so orange had no where to go but down. Almost the equivalent of a high-low hit. The wheel line of travel of the different riders involved tells you a lot about what's going on up top. If white had grabbed or pushed, his line of travel would have altered...which it didn't really appear to. Orange's line of travel didn't really appear to alter either until he touched wheels with the rider in front of him.

Touchinjg happened, but I'm not really seeing a push or grab.









W.