ot: is it too controversial to discuss Daytona crash?

[BobO]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

A lot of those NASCAR boys are highly underrated as drivers due to the “they only turn left” mentality. Those that have tried endurance racing and Indy car have proven to be quite proficient behind the wheel of any race car.

I believe the road circuit cup cars (they are very different from speedway and short track versions) match lap times with other “touring cars” like Trans-Am so not exactly”big pigs”.

I forget which cup driver spent the off season racing in Australia and Asia but he did quite well.

BK

All of the circle track cup drivers started doing serious road course training many years ago. Every year there were a number guys at Bondurant brushing up on their skills. Grip is grip, it's teaching the nuances of road course that they need help with. Driving near the limit while conserving equipment is a nearly universal skill that all top level drivers have to only slightly varying degrees. Anyway, most of those cup guys are actually very fast on road courses.

It used to be that a cup car was substantially slower than an A-Sedan around a place like Sears Point. The TA cars would hand them their ass every time, hell American Iron cars would often be more than a match. There used to be tales of Griggs' Old Blue Fox Body whipping the lap times of those big budget teams. The issue was the weight, with the cup car around 3600# if memory serves. The TA cars were going to be 1000# lighter. That's a pretty big deal on a road course where transient handling is at a premium and whoa-ing that extra weight down adds a lot of distance to the braking zones. No amount of big-budget engine programs can make up for that.

I honestly don't know if that's the case anymore. I'm pretty sure they're running watts links in the rear now, and the brakes are substantially better than they used to be. I think they're still running truck arms even on the road courses, which is a major disadvantage in the braking zones due to their propensity to wheel hop. Though I imagine they've managed to mitigate it some with their advanced level shock valving.

Was it Boris who went to Australia?

[Bruce K]

It was one of the current guys just this past season. They made a big deal about it on the ore-race but I forget who.

Boris Said used to coach the cup guys for road racing. He and a few other Trans-Am guys would occasionally do guest drives at the road courses until the regulars figured out how to go fast on road circuits.

BK

[chuckroast]

I believe Kyle Larson did some midget racing down under in the off season, are you thinking of that?

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by cfox

Only thing? How about the engine? Chevy, Ford, and Toyota provide their own engine blocks, heads, and intake manifolds to the various NASCAR engine builders. It's not just hood ornaments that differentiate the cars. There are big performance differences between the engines; Toyota won 19 races last year, Chevy won 7. Chevrolet teams have known for 3 seasons now that they are underpowered. Looks like the have made up some ground for 2020.

MY point is that these engines are hand made to NASCAR specs(how many push rod V8s does Toyota put in their cars/SUVs/Trucks?)..They 'might start with a block and stuff from the 'manufacturer but any similarity between these engines and what's in yer Silverado, doesn't exist.

Engine displacement is much the same. The only difference between a Ford and a Chevy at the top levels in NASCAR is the engine and the 'skin' on the car. The current Chevrolet engine in NASCAR shares no parts with a production Chevrolet engine. ... Most fans don't realize how much the same all the cars are.

The Toyota V8 is an overhead cam (OHC) engine, like practically all other engines today

NASCAR-National Association of STOCK CAR Racing..uh, really?..Hasn't been for a while.

[glepore]

I don't question the drivers ability, the tech in the car, or the teams engineering.
The problem is that the cars are too equal, so you end up with two cars as a single aero unit being more efficient than one on the speedways. It is a guarantee of a major wreck, given that a slight off center push does what we see happen annually at Daytona Taladega and Charlotte.
The powers that be need to find a solution to this. Introduce a chicane or use the infield road course. No one thinks the infield at Daytona is particularly challenging during the 24, but it keeps most of the cars on the terra firma.

[unterhausen]

They did manage to turn it into IROC, for the most part.

[Mr. Pink]

Hard to judge now, in this day and age when drivers are locked in to mostly one form of racing by contract, but, in olden times, when drivers were drivers (heh), I can't think of any Nascar, or stock car driver who was successful in any other type of racing they attempted, but Indy and sports car drivers used to drop into Daytona or some other fast track and walk away with the prize. It's why I respect Andretti more than most, he's the only driver to win Daytona, Indy 500, and F1 championship. Pretty remarkable, and he killed it in Sprint cars, and, if it wasn't for a stupid mistake at Lemans while he was leading, he'd have that trophy, too.

[unterhausen]

There was a show on amazon about someone moving up to F1. They were showing him on a bicycle, riding at 400 watts.

Not sure he ended up doing that well as a driver, but his cycling was pretty impressive

[GregL]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

It's why I respect Andretti more than most, he's the only driver to win Daytona, Indy 500, and F1 championship. Pretty remarkable, and he killed it in Sprint cars, and, if it wasn't for a stupid mistake at Lemans while he was leading, he'd have that trophy, too.

I grew up admiring Andretti, Foyt, Gurney, and Donohue. Racers who could win on nearly any kind of track or car. I love this interview with Foyt and Gurney talking about their 1967 LeMans win: https://youtu.be/-TYDoqZVtOs

Greg

[Mr. Pink]

Always loved how Foyt called LeMans "nuthin' but a little old country road" The French weren't happy.

[William]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Always loved how Foyt called LeMans "nuthin' but a little old country road" The French weren't happy.

Seeing as most early NASCAR drivers cut their teeth running shine on "little old country roads" it probably was "nuthin" to them.







W.

[Ralph]

The 2021 Cup cars will be a lot more modern, closer to what they sell today. IRS, and different ways to make down force....so air can go under cars again....giving some cooling to cars behind.

Then in 2022....rumor is no more push rod engines. Current push rod engines have evolved so far....they hardly ever blow up anymore...with HP levels between maybe 450 and 900....depending on intake size. Rumor is overhead cam V6's and maybe some hybrid tech like the coming Indy engines. Problem is making that tech last 500-600 miles at max RPM on some of these tracks. Ford, GM, Toyota, and Honda all make V6 3.5 L 4 valve engines. Rumor is Honda may join. Even Chrysler could build a race engine off their 3.6 V6.

The current push rod engines can run 8000-9000 (or slightly more) RPM's all afternoon long and survive. You can watch them bump off the rev limiter around 9600 on TV. An amazing engineering feat for a big engine....even for old tech.

NASCAR has some amazing new tech based on 1960's tech. Watts link solid rears, with camber and toe adjustment on rear...how do you do that on a solid axle car? They do it.

[unterhausen]

they had to do something. Sounds like some interesting changes. Turning Charlotte into a semi-road course wasn't it, IMHO.



It occurs to me that a supermajority of NASCAR fans probably get to races in pickup trucks. They aren't driving cars any more.

[BobO]

Originally Posted by Ralph

The 2021 Cup cars will be a lot more modern, closer to what they sell today. IRS, and different ways to make down force....so air can go under cars again....giving some cooling to cars behind.

Then in 2022....rumor is no more push rod engines. Current push rod engines have evolved so far....they hardly ever blow up anymore...with HP levels between maybe 450 and 900....depending on intake size. Rumor is overhead cam V6's and maybe some hybrid tech like the coming Indy engines. Problem is making that tech last 500-600 miles at max RPM on some of these tracks. Ford, GM, Toyota, and Honda all make V6 3.5 L 4 valve engines. Rumor is Honda may join. Even Chrysler could build a race engine off their 3.6 V6.

The current push rod engines can run 8000-9000 (or slightly more) RPM's all afternoon long and survive. You can watch them bump off the rev limiter around 9600 on TV. An amazing engineering feat for a big engine....even for old tech.

For the last twenty or so years I've thought that NASCAR should open up their engine rules. It would be fun to see people running V10s, V12s, V6s, in all kinds of different configurations. The team that figures out how to make their combination go fast enough on a smaller engine to eliminate a few pit stops will be a real wild-card. They might even win some fans back and maybe garner some new ones.

They lost a lot of long time fans, myself included, by turning into little more than a spec racer series. Not only that, but they also prioritized "close finishes" over good strategic racing. It's their sandbox and they can do whatever they like, but to me, modern NASCAR is a big meh. I'll go to my local Saturday night track.

Originally Posted by Ralph

NASCAR has some amazing new tech based on 1960's tech. Watts link solid rears, with camber and toe adjustment on rear...how do you do that on a solid axle car? They do it.

The last I saw, they were using de-cambered rear ends with the tubes coming off the pumpkin at a slight angle. These would be welded in place as a fixed assembly, but, in top level series they can swap and entire rear end in about 15 minutes. These have been around for decades for road race sedans with solid axles, I think they're even being used in LeMons racing now.

[glepore]

Semi-spec racing works well in Indycar, where dampers are really all that's left. But they're open wheel so you actually have to pass, can't lean on folks.
When Nascar became spec we started to see the bump drafting and trains.