Gore’s testing labs

[HenryA]

If you ever wondered why your outdoor clothing worked so well -

https://www.popularmechanics.com/sci...rture-chamber/

[Veloo]

My material science prof was telling us about the invention of Goretex back in university.
Story went something like the inventor was doing experiments with rods of teflon heated by steam (iirc). Whatever he was trying to achieve, it was not happening. Out of frustration, he pulled one of the heated rods with both hands and it stretched to an extreme length to his surprise.
Upon closer inspection, he saw that the stretching was the result of micro voids forming in the material. The voids were so small that water droplets could not pass through but in the form of vapour, water molecules were able to.
That's why it's breathable and waterproof.

Here's a clip I found.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lDdViCW15w

[Veloo]

And some more (better) history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3ouhP7prTA

[Tickdoc]

Am I the only one who finds Goretex to be very waterproof but very hot? I mean it is suppose to breath but I've never felt it breathes much.

[Polyglot]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Am I the only one who finds Goretex to be very waterproof but very hot? I mean it is suppose to breath but I've never felt it breathes much.

Gore-tex has had and continues to have many iterations. I got a first generation Gore-tex jacket in the 70's and at the time, the waterproof/breathable PTFE film was adhered internally to the outside cloth layer, with no internal protection of teh PTFE. It worked very well in repelling water and allowing the jacket to wick off moisture/sweat when first purchased, but quickly lost its characteristics as the PTFE was not overly resistant to oils (including of the skin) and even less so to friction. This meant that the PTFE was was quickly damaged. The second generation jackets therefore had the PTFE sandwiched between two layer of cloth. This greatly enhanced the durability (thereby reducing the warranty claims) but had a mildly negative impact on the ability to wick off moisture as there was then another layer that the body heat/moisture had to pass through before reaching the PTFE layer. Financially, there was no way that Gore could return to the first gen construction, so in the subsequent generations, you can find a huge variety of inner and outer materials that sandwich the PTFE. Some favor durability, some waterproof or windproof characteristics, others wicking potential. The better the wicking, the less durability the cloth generally has. The market has spoken very clearly for the desire for more durability. Most of us can live with this trade-off. If you complain about the poor wicking, try an old wool cycling jacket with a plastic rain jacket, or a wool jacket with the frontal wind/waterproof cover, then you will learn what real sweat is.

[muz]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Am I the only one who finds Goretex to be very waterproof but very hot? I mean it is suppose to breath but I've never felt it breathes much.

That was true until ShakeDry stuff. But I guess durability is a question mark.

[OtayBW]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Am I the only one who finds Goretex to be very waterproof but very hot? I mean it is suppose to breath but I've never felt it breathes much.

My winter jacket is made by Gore, and is only used when it's pretty cold. Under those conditions, it works beautifully for me. I can ride hard and with proper wicking underlayers, it's always warm and dry....

[Mikej]

Yeah, if only they could figure out some type of vent flap on the back of the jacket....

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Am I the only one who finds Goretex to be very waterproof but very hot? I mean it is suppose to breath but I've never felt it breathes much.

Gore-tex membranes have remarkable properties, but they are not magic. It is not actually 100% 'waterproof', but it is more waterproof than other fabrics of the same breathability. It is not perfectly breathable, but it is more breathable than other fabrics of the same waterproofness.

Also note that Gore produces a number of different fabrics, with different balances of breathability/waterproofness. Their most waterproof fabrics are not as breathable, and their most breathable fabrics are not their most waterproof. If breathability is your primary aim, then you're probably better choosing something other than Gore-Tex.

Except in the very worst of weather, Gore-Tex is generally not the best choice for continuous aerobic activities (like Nordic skiing or many types of cycling).

[OtayBW]

Originally Posted by Mikej

Yeah, if only they could figure out some type of vent flap on the back of the jacket....

Mine has zippered side vent panels beginning just under the armpit. Works for me....

[Ti Designs]

I've been product testing winter clothing for over 10 years, many of the companies I've tested for advertise that they have such testing going on, and their products reflect it. I think the marketing department has far more say about what gets made... It comes down to this: if it can be explained to a consumer, and they understand it, it will sell. The conditions and operating parameters of fabrics is well beyond what consumers get.

Product testing is kinda like congress voting - I'm pretty sure there's something else going on there. I read other reviews of things I've tested and I wonder if they sent out all the same thing. People write glowing reviews of products I fail. My last review was a pair of gators. I ride to the classes I teach every weekday morning around 5am, in the last 2 weeks I've spent 8 hours riding in sub 35F rain - my least favorite. Gators in this case keep cold water from running into my boots, unless the person who designed them gets everything wrong. I did specify that I was riding a bike, yet the heel strap had adjuster buckles on both sides. The plastic buckle didn't stand a chance against the aluminum crank... It's one of those things where I could tell they've never actually used the product.

There are some cases where a company makes two clothing products that don't work together. A few years ago Specialized made winter tights with zippers at the bottom, which is pretty common. They put a big square tab at the end of the zipper so you could zip or unzip them with gloves on. They also made winter boots that year. If you wear both, the end of the zipper digs a hole in your ankle. Specialized is in California, it's a fair bet that they never need winter tights or boots. I called them up and talked with out inside rep (I work for a top 100 Specialized dealer) I asked that he put on both the tights and boots and call me back...

[vespasianus]

Originally Posted by Veloo

My material science prof was telling us about the invention of Goretex back in university.
Story went something like the inventor was doing experiments with rods of teflon heated by steam (iirc). Whatever he was trying to achieve, it was not happening. Out of frustration, he pulled one of the heated rods with both hands and it stretched to an extreme length to his surprise.
Upon closer inspection, he saw that the stretching was the result of micro voids forming in the material. The voids were so small that water droplets could not pass through but in the form of vapour, water molecules were able to.
That's why it's breathable and waterproof.

Here's a clip I found.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lDdViCW15w

Yup. And what many people don't know is that Gore went door to door in Newark Delaware asking people to invest in his company. Most people skipped but many invested. Originally, he was selling shares for $10. But each share today is worth over $300,000. This is a private company and they have resisted going public for 50 years.

[m_sasso]

Worked in the outdoor clothing/gear industry for years well before the advent of PTFE H2O proof clothing. One of the companies I worked for later in my employment was the largest purchaser of Goretex material in the world.

I am calling the Gore story bunk, everything I ever heard or was passed on to me about the discovery of selective permeability of PTFE was made by an Australian plumber, he did not know what to do with his discovery and sold the patient rights to Gore. Gore only found a practical use for the discovery.

Don't believe everything you read in American history books or the internet, remember that Nikola Tesla guy!

[vespasianus]

Originally Posted by m_sasso

Worked in the outdoor clothing/gear industry for years well before the advent of PTFE H2O proof clothing. One of the companies I worked for later in my employment was the largest purchaser of Goretex material in the world.

I am calling the Gore story bunk, everything I ever heard or was passed on to me about the discovery of selective permeability of PTFE was made by an Australian plumber, he did not know what to do with his discovery and sold the patient rights to Gore. Gore only found a practical use for the discovery.

Don't believe everything you read in American history books or the internet, remember that Nikola Tesla guy!

Yeah, that is just stupid.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by m_sasso

I am calling the Gore story bunk, everything I ever heard or was passed on to me about the discovery of selective permeability of PTFE was made by an Australian plumber, he did not know what to do with his discovery and sold the patient rights to Gore. Gore only found a practical use for the discovery.

Don't believe everything you read in American history books or the internet, remember that Nikola Tesla guy!

Your story isn't quite correct - the Australian inventor John Cropper (not a plumber) did discover a way to make PTFE by stretching Teflon a few years before Gore did, but he did not patent his process and kept it a secret. This eventually led to an a patent infringement lawsuit Gore v. Garland, after Garland had bought the rights to use the process from Cropper. You can look up the court briefs to find the details of this case. The interesting thing about this case is that the lower court initially decided that Gore's patent was invalid due to its prior invention by Cropper - but then an appeals court decided that since Cropper had kept his process secret while Gore disclosed his invention (through a patent), Gore was the true inventor.

Who was truly the first to invent or discover something usually isn't as cut and dried as popular stories represent. Often, new inventions incorporate many existing inventions with slight variation, and sometimes are have no new elements at all, but are simply put to new uses. Who actually gets credit for a new invention or discovery often comes down to who has the best lawyers or publicists.