OT - Patriots, again- say it aint so Bill

[soulspinner]

Originally Posted by PQJ

Or just end the absurdity of teams providing their own balls for games.

+1 In what other pro sport do you play with what you brought. It implies a difference.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by soulspinner

+1 In what other pro sport do you play with what you brought. It implies a difference.

I'm guessing this tops 1400 posts..

[daker13]

Originally Posted by Len J

I think there are several different things going on that add up to the punishment.

1.) It's pretty clear that the balls were actively tampered with by McNally with the equipment managers knowledge after they were checked by officials. The texts are pretty unequivocal on that. It's also clear from the texts that it had been going on for a very long time. Say what you will about the process, and Godell, and the league etc, etc, but at the end of the day, IMO, it's pretty hard to argue that there wasn't cheating going on.

1a.) IMO, it's hard to believe that a.) Low level employees would do anything to Brady's footballs, (or any QB's footballs) without his knowledge & b.) as fastidious as Brady is, if they did, it's hard to believe that he wasn't aware of it. Add in his lying, and his suddenly meeting & telecon's with the equipment guy and the tone of those and any reasonable person would come to the conclusion that he knew what was going on.

2.) The standard of proof in both the CBA, the personal conduct policy and the Franchise agreements is "preponderance of the evidence". Those that think it is an unjust standard can believe what they want, but it is the agreed upon threshold.

3.) Brady Lied to Wells about knowing McNally. Hard stop.

4.) Both the personal conduct policy and the individual player contracts require players and employees to fully cooperate with the investigation. Think of them as workplace rules. It's a non-negotiable standard. Brady, after a 3 hour interview with Wells, refused to make his electronics accessible to the investigation. Wells said. “At the same time, he refused to permit us to review electronic data from his telephone or other instruments. Most of the key evidence in this case as in most cases comes from people’s cell phones and he refused to let us review the phone. And I want to be crystal clear, I told Mr. Brady and his agents I was willing to not take possession of the phone, I don’t want to see any private communications, I said, ‘You keep the phone, you give me documents that are responsive to this investigation and I will take your word for it’ and they still refused.” Hard stop.

5.) The Patriots not only didn't cooperate, they obstructed access to Mc Nally. Per Wells: “The Patriots provided me, in my opinion, with substantial cooperation except in one critical and crucial area: I wanted to do a second interview with Jim McNally. Jim McNally was the second Patriots person I interviewed. I wanted, after I interviewed others including Tom Brady, to do a second interview of McNally, to put other questions to him,” Wells said.

Wells said he was struck by a text message in which McNally called himself “The Deflator” and wanted to ask him about that. But the Patriots refused to put him in touch with McNally for a follow-up.

“I asked for a second interview, I said I would go to New Hampshire, I would interview him in the morning, afternoon night, I would do it whenever he was free. And they said not only could I not interview him, they wouldn’t even tell him of my request for an interview,” Wells said.

Wells said that contrary to reports that McNally talked to him four times and only refused for a fifth interview, Wells actually only wanted to talk to McNally twice.

“NFL security people talked to McNally on three occasions,” Wells said. “They talked to him on the night of the game for approximately 40 minutes, they talked to him the next morning by telephone for about 20 minutes, they talked to him in person I believe the next day for about 30 minutes. Those are three interviews. The Patriots urged me when I got to the case to start fresh, not to pay any attention to what NFL security had done. In fact they thought the people at NFL Security were biased. They applauded when I said I wanted to start fresh. And for them to later say I couldn’t have a second interview with the most important person in the case was a lack of cooperation.” Again, clearly in violation of the league contracts requiring full cooperation.

6.) The history of cheating. If this was the organizations first offense, it's hard to argue that the team fines and draft pick losses would have been severe.

7.) The environment. Nothing is ever done in a vacuum. The backlash from the under-penalizing of Rice had an impact on the severity. The league wide perception that by the other 31 teams that Kthe Kraft/Godell relationship had an influence on past dealings with the team had an influence. The other penalties for inside the line cheating like PED use had an influence.

If Brady and the team had fully cooperated, and there was no additional incriminating evidence found as a result of that cooperation, I suspect the fines, suspensions and draft pick losses would have been less severe. I would love to know what the League would have accessed in this case. I suspect it would have been 1-2 games for Brady, a $500K fine and only the 4th round pick....which seems more reasonable for the cheating only. (Which suggests that the obstruction cost Brady & the PATS, 2-3 games, $500K and a first round pick....pretty expensive for being arrogant IMO, unless they were pretty sure there was a good reason to not make McNally or Brady's Phone available).

To those that want to point out that the fine is mandated at $20K (It's actually $25K) and therefor the penalties shouldn't be any worse, they are a.) conveniently ignoring the rest of the rule. Here is the complete rule: “Once the balls have left the locker room, no one, including players, equipment managers and coaches are allowed to alter the footballs in any way. If any individual alters the footballs, or if a non-approved ball is used in the game, the person responsible and, if appropriate, the head coach or other club personnel will be subject to discipline, including but not limited to, a fine of $25,000.”& b.) they are ignoring the other factors (obstruction and history of cheating).

Yeesh. Every one of your points--at least, the ones pertaining to the Pats--can be refuted, but I don't think any minds are going to be changed with the effort.

Goodell's whole problem is that he lacked the stones to deal with the case objectively, and instead used it to try to compensate for his past mis-steps. He can do whatever he wants to the Patriots, pandering to a crowd that absolutely detests that team, but at the end of the day he's just a terrible commissioner.

[jr59]

Originally Posted by daker13

but at the end of the day he's just a terrible commissioner.

But who has made the owners more money than any other commish in the era of TV. The money they are making now with the new TV deals he has brought, as well as the marketing deals league wide, are simply out of this world. More than the old school owners could have ever dreamed of. All while paying very little for past sins (head injuries)

His job as the comish is to make 32 team owners happy, and for the most part he has done that with cold hard cash!

As a fan, you may be correct, but as an owner, I think most are very pleased with the bottom line! And to them, that's what counts most.

[cfox]

Originally Posted by jr59

But who has made the owners more money than any other commish in the era of TV. The money they are making now with the new TV deals he has brought, as well as the marketing deals league wide, are simply out of this world. More than the old school owners could have ever dreamed of. All while paying very little for past sins (head injuries)

His job as the comish is to make 32 team owners happy, and for the most part he has done that with cold hard cash!

As a fan, you may be correct, but as an owner, I think most are very pleased with the bottom line! And to them, that's what counts most.

You really think Goodell has some magic fairy dust? A monkey could run the NFL. Football is a legalized drug that people can't get enough of. It's a sport tailor made for betting. The commissioner's job is to sit back with crossed arms and watch TV networks outbid each other for tv rights. He could be replaced in 5 minutes and the owners wouldn't miss a dollar.

[malcolm]

Originally Posted by cfox

You really think Goodell has some magic fairy dust? A monkey could run the NFL. Football is a legalized drug that people can't get enough of. It's a sport tailor made for betting. The commissioner's job is to sit back with crossed arms and watch TV networks outbid each other for tv rights. He could be replaced in 5 minutes and the owners wouldn't miss a dollar.

Why is football tailor made for betting or more so than any other team sport that depends on a score??? It seems like there is a lot of betting on football for two reasons it's very popular and there is a clear winner. Lots of people handicap football. What am I missing??

[Dave B]

Interesting take that seems to be becoming the consensus around the media and league.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/this-is...200459796.html

[jr59]

Originally Posted by cfox

You really think Goodell has some magic fairy dust? A monkey could run the NFL. Football is a legalized drug that people can't get enough of. It's a sport tailor made for betting. The commissioner's job is to sit back with crossed arms and watch TV networks outbid each other for tv rights. He could be replaced in 5 minutes and the owners wouldn't miss a dollar.

Wow, Then how come all the others before him did not do the same thing?

It wasn't luck!

But as a Pats fan I can see why you are hurt. Goodell isn't all that welcome in New Orleans either

[roubaix]

I find it interesting that the Pats are becoming more disliked than either the Yankees or the Red Sox when it comes to pro sports.

Bloated egos do no one any good as it never ends well.

[Mayhem]

Just when you think you've heard it all

Pats: Jim McNally called himself “Deflator” because he’s fat

Oh, here we go, this makes perfect sense.

Jim McNally didn’t call himself The Deflator because he took air out of footballs, more probably than not at the behest of Tom Brady.

He called himself that because he’s fat.

That’s another of the arguments forwarded by the Patriots in their really long (nearly 20,000 words) refutation of the Ted Wells Report.

The Patriots explain that John Jastremski is a “slender guy,” and usually tried to work out and bulk up. McNally is described as “a big fellow,” and was trying to lose weight.

The Patriots contend investigators had possession of the “espn/deflator” text initially, but didn’t ask McNally about it in their first interview.

“Had they done so, they would have learned from either gentleman one of the ways they used the deflation/deflator term,” they wrote. “‘Deflate’ was a term they used to refer to losing weight.”

They cite specific texts including one which read “deflate and give somebody that jacket.”

“There was nothing complicated or sinister about it,” they wrote, before going through a blow-by-blow of previous texts between McNally and Jastremski which references beer pong and women whose names were “omitted out of respect to Mrs. Jastremski.”

The Patriots suggest that the “jocular texts” undermine Wells’ suggestion that deflator was a reference to anything wrong.

And frankly, that’s as thin as Jastremski apparently is.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...cause-hes-fat/

[cfox]

Originally Posted by malcolm

Why is football tailor made for betting or more so than any other team sport that depends on a score??? It seems like there is a lot of betting on football for two reasons it's very popular and there is a clear winner. Lots of people handicap football. What am I missing??

Simple; because for the most part, all of the games take place on the same day. It's much more convenient for an avid viewer/bettor to get his fix on one day versus games happening all week at different times. You can bet on a ton of games and keep track of them all at the same time. It's the same thing with college football on Saturday. Football, because of its scheduling, is also the perfect fantasy sport. Other fantasy sports are a scheduling/logistical mess by comparison.

Originally Posted by jr59

Wow, Then how come all the others before him did not do the same thing?

It wasn't luck!

But as a Pats fan I can see why you are hurt. Goodell isn't all that welcome in New Orleans either

Huh? They did do the same thing. The NFL has been a printing press for a long time. Fantasy football is a relatively new phenomenon that has had a huge impact on ratings. Prices have gone up across the board, Goodell is riding the wave. I hardly attribute the growing popularity of the sport to anything Goodell has done.

[malcolm]

Originally Posted by cfox

Simple; because for the most part, all of the games take place on the same day. It's much more convenient for an avid viewer/bettor to get his fix on one day versus games happening all week at different times. You can bet on a ton of games and keep track of them all at the same time. It's the same thing with college football on Saturday. Football, because of its scheduling, is also the perfect fantasy sport. Other fantasy sports are a scheduling/logistical mess by comparison.



Huh? They did do the same thing. The NFL has been a printing press for a long time. Fantasy football is a relatively new phenomenon that has had a huge impact on ratings. Prices have gone up across the board, Goodell is riding the wave. I hardly attribute the growing popularity of the sport to anything Goodell has done.

Never thought of that. Always knew lots of money was wagered on football but always just assumed it was because of how popular it was.

[unterhausen]

Originally Posted by cfox

Goodell is riding the wave. I hardly attribute the growing popularity of the sport to anything Goodell has done.

I agree, commissioners are great at taking credit for things that they don't really control. Look at the arc of popularity of MLB and the NBA. I expect that NFL will see a similar peak. Same for college ball. For the longest time, Monday night football was a big deal, now it has been relegated to ESPN. And the NFL ruined the Thursday night game, maybe they are making more off of it now, but having it on their network means that only the most dedicated fans will watch. I used to watch it a lot since I liked the more informal announcer crew.

[PQJ]

Sometimes a sports commissioner can leverage something to a league / tour's advantage. See, e.g., Tim Finchem and Tiger Woods. Tim is a smart negotiator and used Tiger to the maximum (but without foresight, imo, since I don't believe that what has been created is sustainable, given golf's declining popularity and Tiger's very precipitous fall from the top).

But I digress. I'm pretty sure many people could've stewarded the NFL in much the same way as Goodell has. He is one lucky monkey.

[unterhausen]

A liar, a cheat, and a murderer walk into a bar.

Bartender looks up and says, “I didn’t know the Patriots were in town this weekend”.