Taped on Tubular Tires

[m_sasso]

The largest portion of rolling resistance generated in a tubular tired wheel that is taped on, when compared to glued on, is created by the tape. Pushing a wave of compressive tape continually at the contact patch is an undisputed negative detriment to performance and anyone that tells you other wise is full of bunk.

Tubular tires are designed for performance, use glue!

[robt57]

Is there data to support this, first I am reading it??


OK, let's definitely do this:


exhibit A: http://kuktl.dept.ku.edu/bicycle/Part9.pdf

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by robt57

Is there data to support this, first I am reading it??

exhibit A: http://kuktl.dept.ku.edu/bicycle/Part9.pdf

REPLY

From the Effetto Mariposa Carogna site

Question:

How does Carogna compare to glue in terms of rolling resistance? I saw a mention that you had scheduled testing with a Finnish company in 2015. But I can’t find results. I’d be willing to trade some performance for convenience. But I’d like to do it in an informed way.

Answer:

Laboratory test results show that the crr (coefficient of rolling resistance) of gluing tape is higher than mastic. Checking different tapes and mastics, it seems all mastics performs more or less the same, and all tapes are also equivalent among them from that standpoint, with a crr penalty of around 15% for tapes (same tubular, same pressure, same testing conditions).


In my world 15% is large!

[superbowlpats]

Not sure what prompted the rant against tape. If you are concerned about rolling resistance then you should be using clinchers and latex tubes.

FWIW i use the effetto tape on my CX tubular wheels. installation is a breeze, maybe 10 mins but I'm slow. and Ive used the tape on used carbon rims with no issues racing the past 2 seasons.

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by superbowlpats

Not sure what prompted the rant against tape. If you are concerned about rolling resistance then you should be using clinchers and latex tubes.

FWIW i use the effetto tape on my CX tubular wheels. installation is a breeze, maybe 10 mins but I'm slow. and Ive used the tape on used carbon rims with no issues racing the past 2 seasons.

Originally Posted by joevers

If you all cared about rolling resistance you'd run clinchers or tubeless.

29 of the 30 fastest road tires on bicycle rolling resistance are clincher or tubeless, and that one tubular in the top 30 is the corsa speed. Most of the fastest ones are tubeless and measure about 27.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews

If you're in it for the tradition, sure. If you're in it because it's what you watched all the pros ride for decades, sure. If you don't want to run tubes because you think they're inferior, and don't want to mess with tubeless because you've refined your glue method over 40 years and don't want anything to do with sealant, sure. If you care so much about rolling resistance, don't run tubulars.

Those numbers are completely misleading, a conclusion based on what has been tested, if they bothered to even test tubulars the numbers would be much different. You need to test tubular tires before you can compare numbers to tubeless or tubed tires!

I only use tubulars on the track, besides safety, the rolling resistance of the top track tubular tires are well below any road tire tubed or tubeless!

[joevers]

Originally Posted by m_sasso

I only use tubulars on the track

I agree with you then.

I think if you led with this you'd have gotten a lot less pushback. I don't know anybody that would use tape on a track tubular.

Road tubular is a different can of worms and it's well proven that rolling resistance in road tires is continuing to fall behind clinchers every year. For the track, not so much. For now there's still a pretty clear advantage to tubulars, and I don't think tubular tape is in a position to be used safely on the track yet.

I run latex tubes and veloflex 23's, but that's because I can't justify a velodrome only wheelset. I train and I commute on my track bikes and value easy tire changes several times a year. If I could, you'd bet I'd be running vittoria pistas on tubular rims.

Editing to add:

Originally Posted by m_sasso

Those numbers are completely misleading, a conclusion based on what has been tested, if they bothered to even test tubulars the numbers would be much different. You need to test tubular tires before you can compare numbers to tubeless or tubed tires!

They do test tubulars, though not nearly to the extent that they test clinchers. They have several from Vittoria, the Schwalbe Pro One, and the Continental Competition. That makes up primarily what pro racers who ride tubulars are on, and they tested really rather poorly. If you know of secret tires that have less than half the resistance of the Continental Competition, well I'm sure the world tour teams would love to know. Otherwise, the Corsa Speed tubeless in 25mm has quite literally half the rolling resistance of the most common tubular tire in the world tours

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by joevers

I agree with you then.

I think if you led with this you'd have gotten a lot less pushback. I don't know anybody that would use tape on a track tubular.

Road tubular is a different can of worms and it's well proven that rolling resistance in road tires is continuing to fall behind clinchers every year. For the track, not so much. For now there's still a pretty clear advantage to tubulars, and I don't think tubular tape is in a position to be used safely on the track yet.

I run latex tubes and veloflex 23's, but that's because I can't justify a velodrome only wheelset. I train and I commute on my track bikes and value easy tire changes several times a year. If I could, you'd bet I'd be running vittoria pistas on tubular rims.

Get yourself some Victoria Pista Oro's https://www.vittoria.com/us/pista-oro-track.html
or some Continental Sonderklasse II's https://www.continental-tires.com/bi.../sonderklasse2
or some Continental Olympic II's https://www.racycles.com/product/detail/1678

[joevers]

Originally Posted by m_sasso

Get yourself some Victoria Pista Oro's https://www.vittoria.com/us/pista-oro-track.html
or some Continental Sonderklasse II's https://www.continental-tires.com/bi.../sonderklasse2

Huh never heard of the Pista Oro. Reading the cost had me throw up a little bit though. I can't imagine anyone that rides those actually pays for it. Seems like they're only offered to consumers so that the UCI allows them. I don't think they'd make it more than a few laps at an outdoor track though, and in PA that's all I've got.

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by joevers

Huh never heard of the Pista Oro. Reading the cost had me throw up a little bit though. I can't imagine anyone that rides those actually pays for it. Seems like they're only offered to consumers so that the UCI allows them. I don't think they'd make it more than a few laps at an outdoor track though, and in PA that's all I've got.

I normally ride a wooden track, however I have put in quite a few laps on Continental Sonderklasse tires Jerry Baker, Redmond Washington and The Westshore Velodrome, Victoria, BC, Canada both outdoor and concrete with no adverse ware.

[ultraman6970]

Dont want to be mean with the op, actually nothing against him... but always stuff like this comes out in super studies that this and that is better... wish I would have known all what is said years ago I would have won more races :P

Honestly, take the results of all of that with a grain of salt because probably the pros dont give a darn about it, just take a big 5 pounds dump in the morning before going for a ride and there u have it... no matter the wheel... the bike will go faster

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

Dont want to be mean with the op, actually nothing against him... but always stuff like this comes out in super studies that this and that is better... wish I would have known all what is said years ago I would have won more races :P

Honestly, take the results of all of that with a grain of salt because probably the pros dont give a darn about it, just take a big 5 pounds dump in the morning before going for a ride and there u have it... no matter the wheel... the bike will go faster

What got me wound up was some of the responses to the "Tubulars - so many questions!" post.

Agreed a lot of nit picking, much about nothing, if you don't really have the energy to glue your tires on, fine use tape, tube or sealant and save your energy for riding, just get out there and ride!

[joevers]

If you all cared about rolling resistance you'd run clinchers or tubeless.

29 of the 30 fastest road tires on bicycle rolling resistance are clincher or tubeless, and that one tubular in the top 30 is the corsa speed. Most of the fastest ones are tubeless and measure about 27.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews

If you're in it for the tradition, sure. If you're in it because it's what you watched all the pros ride for decades, sure. If you don't want to run tubes because you think they're inferior, and don't want to mess with tubeless because you've refined your glue method over 40 years and don't want anything to do with sealant, sure. If you care so much about rolling resistance, don't run tubulars.

[chismog]

I've been riding old neglected tubular sets lately because of tape. I spent a bunch of time cleaning them up, removing glue, truing, etc. When the time came to mount them, I'd never used tape before so it was also intended to be an experiment.

Look, I've glued lots of tires. I know what that is about. Kudos to you hardmen, I guess. I have always thought it sucks- it's nasty, and I inevitably make a mess.

Imho, tape is easier. It is cleaner. It has no drips or smelly fumes. It doesn't get on your fingers or the sidewalls. The process of straightening the mounted tire is improved. The consistency of the bond is better. I have zero questions about the holding power of tape on my road tires.

>>> Crucially, I believe it can more easily be done to a higher standard than a glue job, by an inexperienced mechanic. <<<

I wanted to roll some tubulars for the ride quality, not to win a race. I wanted to avoid a gluey mess, and I wanted to avoid $100 in shop labor paying someone else to deal with it. Tape was the obvious and easy solution.

When I did get a flat tire, the magic of Stan's meant I didn't have to pull the tire off. I can see the holding power of the tape as a negative for tire removal, but it's a positive for 99.99% of the time I'm using the tire. If I only have to pull it off to replace it, then I don't care how hard it is to remove. Glue is hard to remove, too. (I know, don't remove old glue- whatever. It eventually builds up, or I don't know what you used, or it's gotten places I don't want it. It's gotta come off sometime.)

I hadn't ridden my tubies for years because I remembered they were an unreliable, messy, PITA. They were special occasion only. I don't think my experience was unique. For me, the ease of modern technology (tape and Stan's) has put them back in rotation, on regular rides. My rolling resistance went up compared to the wheels+tires I wasn't using before? OK, they still feel like tubulars and that's what I wanted.

[redir]

I bought a used wheelset that had tires taped on and when it came to remove them I about killed myself they were so difficult to remove. The tires were old anyway but if not I had to destroy them to remove them.

I did the 'Belgian Tape Method' on a set of cross wheels once becasue I guess that's what the cool cats were doing and it was the only time I ever rolled a tire in cross.

I'll never use tape again. And I like Mastik One in the can using a brush.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by m_sasso

The largest portion of rolling resistance generated in a tubular tired wheel that is taped on, when compared to glued on, is created by the tape. Pushing a wave of compressive tape continually at the contact patch is an undisputed negative detriment to performance and anyone that tells you other wise is full of bunk.

Tubular tires are designed for performance, use glue!

And use Panaracer!! Doesn't get thick, is clear and ya can 'take a trip without leaving the farm'..if ya do it in an unventilated room...

If can't find a can of it, cut your Fosters can in half(after drinking it-YO)..and get a solvent brush...

Yee gads..rolling resistance is measured in teeny improvements or teeny reductions..NOT why ya use a tubular and tape is gunky...

Panaracer!!