OT: "The Miseducation of the American Boy."

[colker]

I believe we are at a turning point and next generation´s women won´t be helpless and abused physically by men. It already started and there is a big international movement dedicated to level men and women meaning women won´t be men´s property or declared guilty when men feel entitled to rape them.

[Kirk007]

Women writing about the male adolescent experience, I always take it with a grain of salt as they never live it. And it"s so much more complicated than blaming it on enduring *male" culture. The author never considers the biological component. I still smile when I think of my well intended politically correct neighbor, a very smart woman ER doctor, who was at her wits end because despite her best efforts in toy selection and everything else, her 4 year old son turned everything into a weapon of aggression when playing. She asked me why, I said "boy."

And I agree with BigBill and Houston re how hard it is to parent a boy. For me it was a crazy mix of letting go of expectations, offering guidance when Ian was open to it, being present during hard times which included 3 suicides of schoolmates, establishing a hard edge when absolutely necessary for safety, and grudgingly accepting that his peers had as much or more influence than I did, and hoping like hell that all the prior years of love would see him through those crazy years of 14-20.

Hardest job ever, and you never stop being a parent.

Is the larger context unwoke men? I think the larger context is the decay and loss of good education and the growing culture where honor, honesty, fair play, tolerance, concern for others, humans and all the other species, is losing sway to a culture where cheating and dishonesty, fear of others and narcissism is the plat du jour exhibited by way to many "adults." I don't think it's a male - female problem (although yes that"s part of it) rather it's a human problem. I also think, because the other option is unacceptable, that this wave too will pass.

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[Gummee]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

Women writing about the male adolescent experience, I always take it with a grain of salt as they never live it. And it"s so much more complicated than blaming it on enduring *male" culture. The author never considers the biological component. I still smile when I think of my well intended politically correct neighbor, a very smart woman ER doctor, who was at her wits end because despite her best efforts in toy selection and everything else, her 4 year old son turned everything into a weapon of aggression when playing. She asked me why, I said "boy."

And I agree with BigBill and Houston re how hard it is to parent a boy. For me it was a crazy mix of letting go of expectations, offering guidance when Ian was open to it, being present during hard times which included 3 suicides of schoolmates, establishing a hard edge when absolutely necessary for safety, and grudgingly accepting that his peers had as much or more influence than I did, and hoping like hell that all the prior years of love would see him through those crazy years of 14-20.

Hardest job ever, and you never stop being a parent.

Is the larger context unwoke men? I think the larger context is the decay and loss of good education and the growing culture where honor, honesty, fair play, tolerance, concern for others, humans and all the other species, is losing sway to a culture where cheating and dishonesty, fear of others and narcissism is the plat du jour exhibited by way to many "adults." I don't think it's a male - female problem (although yes that"s part of it) rather it's a human problem. I also think, because the other option is unacceptable, that this wave too will pass.

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I think we're fixin to come round to a religious discussion here shortly.

I'll agree on the last paragraph, and question 'why?' Why is that? What's missing? Obviously something's changed in the last few years/decades.

M

[bigbill]

Originally Posted by Gummee

I think we're fixin to come round to a religious discussion here shortly.

I'll agree on the last paragraph, and question 'why?' Why is that? What's missing? Obviously something's changed in the last few years/decades.

M

I never took my son to church, I told him it was his choice. When I moved to NE Texas after I retired from the Navy, one of the first people I met outside work as the president of a local bank where I opened an account. He had a son the same age as mine and they ended up being best friends all through junior high and high school. All his close friends were of good character. I'd say I won the lottery with my kid, but there were so many times it could have gone wrong.

I think the missing "things" are intrusive parenting, actual interactions that don't involve an electronic device, and less emphasis on "select" sports. Let kids be kids. Intrusive parenting is tougher when it's a single parent or both parents work. I looked at raising a kid as an 18 year project. I know it's more than that.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

Women writing about the male adolescent experience, I always take it with a grain of salt as they never live it. And it"s so much more complicated than blaming it on enduring *male" culture. The author never considers the biological component. I still smile when I think of my well intended politically correct neighbor, a very smart woman ER doctor, who was at her wits end because despite her best efforts in toy selection and everything else, her 4 year old son turned everything into a weapon of aggression when playing. She asked me why, I said "boy."

And I agree with BigBill and Houston re how hard it is to parent a boy. For me it was a crazy mix of letting go of expectations, offering guidance when Ian was open to it, being present during hard times which included 3 suicides of schoolmates, establishing a hard edge when absolutely necessary for safety, and grudgingly accepting that his peers had as much or more influence than I did, and hoping like hell that all the prior years of love would see him through those crazy years of 14-20.

Hardest job ever, and you never stop being a parent.

Is the larger context unwoke men? I think the larger context is the decay and loss of good education and the growing culture where honor, honesty, fair play, tolerance, concern for others, humans and all the other species, is losing sway to a culture where cheating and dishonesty, fear of others and narcissism is the plat du jour exhibited by way to many "adults." I don't think it's a male - female problem (although yes that"s part of it) rather it's a human problem. I also think, because the other option is unacceptable, that this wave too will pass.

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Yes. And yes, but ...

One of the best perks in my former life as journalist was being granted a "passport" into other people's lives. It was a real gift, and the aspect of journalism I miss the most.

Good writers can navigate terrains and cultures not inherently their own with both a fresh perspective and nuance. I had a college buddy that was Black and gay who wrote a fantastic essay on the (largely white) Pacific Heights Debutante scene. He just killed it. He got inside the "skin" of the story and wrote a great piece.

If a cultural landscape is not your own, extra caution is needed before making sweeping declarations. This writer was seemingly oblivious to that.

[Frankwurst]

I was a bad parent. I would not let my kid's have video games or sit around and watch TV. Our daughter came in one day when she was in high school and said she needed a cell phone. I told her to get a job. Our son decided he wanted a newer truck. I said fine here's how it works, you borrow money, make payments and one day it'll be yours. Funny they both still like being around drinking, eating and BSing with the old man.

[bigbill]

Originally Posted by Frankwurst

I was a bad parent. I would not let my kid's have video games or sit around and watch TV. Our daughter came in one day when she was in high school and said she needed a cell phone. I told her to get a job. Our son decided he wanted a newer truck. I said fine here's how it works, you borrow money, make payments and one day it'll be yours. Funny they both still like being around drinking, eating and BSing with the old man.

My son liked online gaming but we made rules, first he had to schedule the time and stick to his schedule, second, I put a pull up bar in the doorway to his bathroom, every time his character would die, he had to do pull ups or push ups until his character returned. One afternoon I went in his room and he was doing pull ups, one after another, for what seemed like a few minutes. He must have sucked at that game. Once he saw the changes in the mirror, it motivated him to do more.

[d_douglas]

Well said.

I still think my very feminist wife (what else would she be?) gives our son too long of a rope and he sometimes treats her disrespectfully (like most kids, demanding that we do things for them). I have to remind both of them of the pitfalls of this behaviour and especially to my wife that she needs to remind him that being respectful to all people is a basic tenet of being an evolved human being.

He’s a sweetheart, but sometimes the whining and pressure he heaps on my wife grates on my nerves. She’s so deeply in love that sometimes she overlooks his poor behaviour, which shocks me.

Anyhoo, as Houston noted, it’s our duty to educate kids in a kind and loving way - how else will they grow?

Originally Posted by joosttx

Testosterone.... A few months my son and I were riding up Mt Tam and we passed a group of female MTBers, who were on a bike shop womens only MTB ride. My son, 8 years old, sans shirt sped up and passed them. He was clearly attempting to pass them with speed. As I casually passed them one of the women in a not so nice tone said: "He's got a lot of testosterone." I quickly thought that was a really weird thing to say. So I just replied, "Yup they're born with it".

I really hate the articles that you are posting up because they are simply rehashes of old stories with a modern spin to them. I learn nothing from reading it other than some more precise facts. Maybe I am already woke and dont know it. The solutions are simple but to execute is difficult. Maybe not difficult but hard. Like training for cycling, no short cuts exist- a climbing bike isn't going to help you climb better if you are not trained.

Toxic masculinity has been in existence ever since Adam's balls drop. How do you fix it.... well be a good parent and community. Teaching boys (since this is the subject) how to act is the duty of the parents. It is like nailing jello to a wall. But just because it is like that doesn't mean you don't focus on doing a good job at it.

[HenryA]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

The men who have systemically harassed, abused, and assaulted women need to be punished to the full extent of the law. Simple as that.

I don't know that the author exhibits hatred toward men. I wouldn't go that far. I just thinks she's guilty of sloppy journalism. She had a premise in search of a book. Using outliers (such as the kid so bottled up he needed to watch Holocaust movies in order to cry) makes for compelling reading but it uses a very broad brush.

I think the author conflates "masculinity" with "testosterone." One is a social construct and one is biological. Sixteen year-old boys who prioritize getting laid are not exhibiting "toxic masculinity." That's call "testosterone." How it manifests itself is a different matter.

And her premise in search of a book was the stereotypical man hate to which I refer.

Holding half the population of the world responsible for the bad deeds of a few is corrosive to society. Its one flip side of referring to women as hos and bitches. Men are all rapists and women are all whores is not a game to help anyone.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by bigbill

I was on track to retire as a Navy Captain about now. In 2011, I didn't like how my son was behaving and the now-ex had essentially stopped parenting. I retired the next year which was the earliest I could punch out. From 2012 until he graduated HS in 2018, my focus was totally on him. We talked every afternoon about homework, school, life, etc. After about a year, he opened up and our talks got better. At 16, we sat down and put together a plan for college and all the things he needed to do and the pitfalls he needed to avoid. There were setbacks but more progress, mostly from what he learned from the setbacks. I taught him to respect women and how to be a gentleman without being overly patronizing. Lots of trial and error but I am so immensely proud of the person he has become. He'll turn 21 this October and I plan on flying out to MD so he can buy me a beer in downtown Annapolis.

Good on ya and good on your son as well. I did something similar..Turn down an airline job(FedEx) because my son's were in HS, a new HS at that, and I couldn't see wearing a blue suit and being gone 50% of the time..

Probably already asked you but son's 'plans' for his warfare specialty?

I retired at 20 also..but that's a whole 'nother story....

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by bigbill

My son liked online gaming but we made rules, first he had to schedule the time and stick to his schedule, second, I put a pull up bar in the doorway to his bathroom, every time his character would die, he had to do pull ups or push ups until his character returned. One afternoon I went in his room and he was doing pull ups, one after another, for what seemed like a few minutes. He must have sucked at that game. Once he saw the changes in the mirror, it motivated him to do more.

That's fantastic.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by HenryA

And her premise in search of a book was the stereotypical man hate to which I refer.

Holding half the population of the world responsible for the bad deeds of a few is corrosive to society. Its one flip side of referring to women as hos and bitches. Men are all rapists and women are all whores is not a game to help anyone.

This is some reactionary both sides-ism. The onus is on men to change their behavior in aggregate towards women, both in the micro and the macro. However one defines it, whether someone sees that as smashing the patriarchy or simply demanding a more equitable seat at the table. That means everything from ensuring victims of sexual and domestic violence are heard and taken seriously, to efforts in the workplace to ensure women are paid the same for the same work as men.

The underlying premise of this line of thought is that we live in a society without broad structural gender bias, and that's simply not true.

[Hawker]

Originally Posted by bigbill

My son wants to ride tubeless on the road, I'm trying to figure out where I failed as a parent. Tubeless is just a gateway to disc brakes.

LOLOL!

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Didn’t read the article but I reread hilltop’s reply three times. Very well said. Massive social and cultural changes have happened in just my lifetime. When I compare my grandfather’s life to my father’s life to mine? What an amazing change in such a brief time.

Kinda scary isn't it?

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Even Howard Stern (Howard Stern!) is worried about the effect of free and abundant pornography on today's youth.

I'm hopeful he feels responsibility for some of it.

[bigbill]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Good on ya and good on your son as well. I did something similar..Turn down an airline job(FedEx) because my son's were in HS, a new HS at that, and I couldn't see wearing a blue suit and being gone 50% of the time..

Probably already asked you but son's 'plans' for his warfare specialty?

I retired at 20 also..but that's a whole 'nother story....

I retired at 27 years when he was 12. I did eight deployments after he was born, 9/11 didn't help that. His well-being trumped my career goals. When I retired and took my first engineering job, it was a giant step backwards for me professionally, but it put him in a stable situation with good schools. After he graduated and headed off to the Naval Academy, I put my career back on track as an engineering manager. My next move will be Plant Manager but I've got no desire for that. I'd rather teach history at a community college to give me some spending money.

My son's desire, for now, is Marine Aviation. He wants to fly F-35B's off big deck amphibs. He will likely be attending West Point for his fall semester. I'm going to the Army-Navy game this year, he should be part of the "prisoner exchange" during pregame. West Point is much harder to visit than Annapolis. It is literally 25 minutes from the BWI rental car place to Bancroft Hall.

[bigbill]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

This is some reactionary both sides-ism. The onus is on men to change their behavior in aggregate towards women, both in the micro and the macro. However one defines it, whether someone sees that as smashing the patriarchy or simply demanding a more equitable seat at the table. That means everything from ensuring victims of sexual and domestic violence are heard and taken seriously, to efforts in the workplace to ensure women are paid the same for the same work as men.

The underlying premise of this line of thought is that we live in a society without broad structural gender bias, and that's simply not true.

In my last engineering job, I was a recruiter at college job fairs and I would attempt to make my interview pool at least half women. That was hard in Mechanical but pretty easy for Electrical, Chemical, and Industrial. That employer had a standard starting salary with no regards to gender. An engineer was an engineer. My current employer is not as forward thinking. Women engineers are an anomaly and I challenge that on a daily basis. It's a tough bias to change.