OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[benb]

Originally Posted by C40_guy

Or the health costs created by fossil fuel pollution. Those are hidden, except for those suffering, so they don't get factored into the equation.

Externalities. I graduated from college 25 years ago (engineering school) and we had required classes in humanities that were about externalities.

The person considered responsible for the largest # of human deaths is the engineer who created lead fuel additives, and it's still estimated to be causing 1M deaths/yr even now after it's gone in most markets.

The largest externality that didn't have to be paid for in history, though CO2 production might eventually exceed it.

[bfd]

Originally Posted by BdaGhisallo

I can't access the article. Does it make any mention of the effects on emissions or other pollution of the production of the inputs that go into constructing an EV, and where those effects occur?

No. The article basically states:

UC Berkeley scientists tracked a modest but steady decrease in carbon dioxide emissions between 2018 and 2022, a trend that held true even when factoring outside impacts like pandemic traffic reductions and seasonal differences.

While data was tracked from 50 air-quality sensors posted throughout the Bay Area, many atop schools, the largest concentrations of carbon dioxide were recorded along highway corridors, according to lead researcher Ronald Cohen. The researchers concluded the drop can be attributed to cleaner transportation options like hybrid and electric cars plus improved fuel-efficiency standards.

He said the 1.8% average annual decrease in the amount of carbon dioxide detected by these sensors may seem small, but for comparison, a 3.5% annual decrease would bring the region in line with the state’s carbon neutrality goals in 2045.

“If we do it for 20 years, it’s a big number,” said Cohen, a professor and executive associate dean of UC Berkeley’s College of Computing, Data Science and Society.

It also stated:

Prior studies attempted to track carbon dioxide emissions in cities including Los Angeles, Indianapolis and Paris, and all reported reductions. In the Los Angeles study, researchers reported a 10% reduction in carbon dioxide emissions during the recession from 2008 to 2010. In Paris, a study found a 2% annual decrease from 2016 to 2020.

But Cohen said their study is the first to look at a broader region and link reductions to electric cars. Cohen said their findings showed a stronger link between electric vehicles and reduced emissions than he had expected.

Good Luck!

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by BdaGhisallo

I can't access the article. Does it make any mention of the effects on emissions or other pollution of the production of the inputs that go into constructing an EV, and where those effects occur?

I believe there are links way back in this thread that have information regarding the total CO2 impact of an EV vs a combustion vehicle over the lifetime of the car, from mining of minerals to producing electricity. I don’t know about other impacts but it’s hardly a secret that mining, drilling and other forms of mineral extraction are a dirty business, both literally and figuratively.

From what I have read, it seems an EV should produce less CO2 overall than a comparable ICE car, though clearly they are not zero emissions as is sometimes suggested.

[buddybikes]

In summary - ride your bike or take public transportation if possible.

Have a friend that is trying to sell me on EV. She talks the environmental talk but then drives her car everywhere then jumps on a plane to have croissants in Paris.

We've been driving a Prius type since 2003, when her husband thought we were crazy due to battery wearing out, which never did...

[benb]

Heh yes I think everything in this thread that has a political bent has just gone in circles 2-3x.

There is lots of exciting new stuff to talk about, not sure why the same discussions have to keep coming up.

One thing very striking to me at the auto show a couple weeks ago is if you are really attached to burning gas the automakers are happy to sell you a bigger vehicle than ever with a bigger engine that still struggles to get 20mpg. If that's what you want it is there for you, they can do it now since their corporate MPG and CO2 numbers look so much better as they sell some EVs & PHEVs.

It was really, really striking how there is nothing in the middle anymore. You either have an EV/PHEV to buy or they've got you covered with a gigantic pickup truck or SUV with a gigantic engine. That thing will struggle to get 20mpg in the real world, but it's got a 400-500 horsepower option so you don't feel slow next to all the EVs. A sensible sedan with a moderately sized engine? Nobody wants that. It's like the vehicle choices are as polarized as American politics.

[unterhausen]

If you want to find evidence that EV's cause more pollution than ICE vehicles, you can. Because it's really easy to fake the data, and the media is addicted to contrarian stories like that. It's similar to why the number of articles about exercise being bad for your health outnumber stories about exercise being good for your health.

The fakenomics guys have really caused a lot of damage to our society with their success selling contrarian stories.

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by benb

Meanwhile of course no one really bothers to talk much about the annual $20 billion in subsidies we still give to the fossil fuel industry.

We'll need a couple hundred years of EV, Solar, Wind, etc.. subsidies at the current rate to ever catch up to what we gifted fossil fuel companies.

All these comparisons even, they ignore we're all subsidising the cost of gas, cost of natural gas to heat your house, etc..

This ^ many billions of times over.

[bfd]

Originally Posted by unterhausen

If you want to find evidence that EV's cause more pollution than ICE vehicles, you can. Because it's really easy to fake the data, and the media is addicted to contrarian stories like that. It's similar to why the number of articles about exercise being bad for your health outnumber stories about exercise being good for your health.

The fakenomics guys have really caused a lot of damage to our society with their success selling contrarian stories.

The US EPA puts out a FAQ on EV Myths:

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

Good Luck!

[benb]

Originally Posted by bfd

The US EPA puts out a FAQ on EV Myths:

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

Good Luck!

This stuff shows how internalized we have become with everything to do with oil.

Imagine if they were trying to sell us ICE cars for the first time after a hundred years of EVs.

"What if X invades Y and interrupts our flow of oil for gasoline? Will gas still be affordable?" "What if country Z starts funding rebels that threaten to hijack gasoline supertankers in the Persian Gulf which causes the price of oil to increase?" "What if Dictator P raises the prices for Europe to buy oil and it causes the global price to increase?"

Then you had to have the EPA explaining,

"No, we will borrow trillions of dollars on world financial markets, increase the monetary supply of US Dollars, invade multiple countries, occupy multiple countries, destabilize global politics, etc.. to keep the price of gas affordable. By borrowing & printing the money we can ensure future generations have to pay for it, not current citizens."

"Wait these cars emit uncontrolled pollution at a rate of ~15lbs per gallon of gas into the atmosphere? What if it harms us?"

EPA:

"We will just ignore that for now, it will take a hundred years before we have to deal with the issue."

[jm714]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Really? Do you know all the Tesla drivers?

No but it seems a good portion of them like to set their cruise control for 70 in the HOV lane and block traffic.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by jm714

No but it seems a good portion of them like to set their cruise control for 70 in the HOV lane and block traffic.

That rude and illegal behavior is hardly unique to Tesla drivers. Hardly anyone in the US seems to get that the left lane is for passing, not for cruising. Not many HOV lanes where I live. I own a Tesla and try hard to be a normal, courteous driver.

[peanutgallery]

The NY Post always delivers

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

I think we can all agree that the New York Post is a good source for reliable reporting of social behavior, and this portrait of Tesla drivers is pretty accurate. Their findings are supported by the National Enquirer, which independently concluded that the majority of Tesla owners are 2-headed, human-alien hybrids that flagrantly ignore the rules for entering and exiting traffic circles.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by saab2000

That rude and illegal behavior is hardly unique to Tesla drivers. Hardly anyone in the US seems to get that the left lane is for passing, not for cruising. Not many HOV lanes where I live. I own a Tesla and try hard to be a normal, courteous driver.

HOV lanes may be located on the left, but they are not for passing. They are, in fact, meant for cruising.

[cgolvin]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

HOV lanes may be located on the left, but they are not for passing. They are, in fact, meant for cruising.

That's true, but if I'm driving in the HOV and my speed causes faster traffic to back up behind me, I change lanes when legal in order to allow that traffic to pass.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by cgolvin

That's true, but if I'm driving in the HOV and my speed causes faster traffic to back up behind me, I change lanes when legal in order to allow that traffic to pass.

I don't know about the HOV lanes where you live, but the lanes here have limited access points, so that wouldn't be practical. And, if you did that during commuting time, you'd be merging into a lane that was probably moving a lot slower.