Moots Carbon Gravel E-bike!

[benb]

Originally Posted by Gwerziou

E-bikes certainly have value as a form of transportation for the masses. I think of them as more 'bicycle adjacent' rather than bicycles per se. The value for those with health issues that preclude cycling is significant, offering them a bicycle-like experience.

They do push the actual bicycle to a 'second-tier' status on the nominal bike paths in the urban area that I commute in - now heavy motorized vehicles with sometimes clueless operators are right on the bike paths: look out.

To me, the most appealing thing about them is that you don't need a license and insurance. This is a huge advantage over motorcycles, which have those costs attached and also can't ride on bike paths etc. I have to hand it to the smart minds that found a way to introduce motorized vehicles that skirt regulation and licensure and can run freely on the paths, sidewalks, streets, and trails of my area.

The other awesome thing about eBikes is they are so damn light and don't generate waste heat.

Motorcycles are a million times better than cars in that they have not porked up a ridiculous degree over the past 20 years. A lot of performance motorcycles have steadily gotten lighter over the years. But they have gotten hotter and hotter running as emissions got cleaned up.

A heavy motorcycle powerful motorcycle kind of sucks when you're in slow speed urban environments. The eBike being under 100lbs and not generating significant heat is really nice in those types of situations.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

If Ben Serotta made an e-bike, 50 posters on paceline would create a 75,000 page thread. The rest of the internet would be like "Ben who?"

ftfy. It would be a record breaker.

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

If you are that concerned about the world's future, you wouldn't use titanium either -- its energy cost dwarfs the energy cost of steel.

Thank you for someone else pointing out this. I was avoiding being that guy

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by Butch

FYI there is a multi year backstory to this development. It is something ownership wanted before the sale to the investment group.

Running a profitable small high-end bike manufacturing company is a huge challenge. In most US businesses the profit margin is much, much higher than Moots. The pandemic was a golden ring for ownership and therefore a great time to sell. Investment groups generally want to see ROI grow for a period of time then sell them to the next group of investors. Often leveraging the brand to increase revenue is key to this. The trick is not to devalue the existing products and brand. I hope this group is in it for the long haul, providing quality products and employing great craftsmen and women. If designing, outsourcing and selling these bikes does that then so be it.

I agree with what James was saying in closing, I hope the leadership at Moots can pull this off without damaging the handbuilt aspect of the brand. They are still making excellent products in house with a very talented group, although and unfortunately diminished.

Management is still all about quality and I am sure they will do everything possible to get the most out of the factory in China. This is their design, not an open mold but I will say walking into the shop and seeing boxes stacked high with MOOTS and MADE in CHINA on them made my head spin a bit.

Thanks for this reply, Butch.

[markdjr]

This Battaglin is a perfect example of what this bike should have been, only in Ti. The idea that they would have had to make the bike too stiff to accomodate the torque and weight is absurd. Humans are putting out much more than 60-85nm of Tq on analog bikes without issue and the added weight is negligible relative to disparities in rider weight.

This thread shouldn't be debating the values of ebikes in general, other threads for that. This one should be focused on the Moots ebike specifically and in my opinion, another big miss from these guys.

Originally Posted by Burnette

High end bikes, high price bikes, race bikes no one will race, this all isn't new, it's actually the norm.

After being out of cycling a bit, seeing the high prices reflects everything else we're buying. High automobile prices with added additional dealer markups (ADM) are selling at a good clip. People are willing to pay (and/or get into debt) to get what they want. Reason and practically aren't the top metrics for a lot of consumers.

Again, after looking at top tier race bikes from the big brands, ask yourself who is buying them and who is actually racing on them.

The world changes, we can stay abd thoroughly where we are and watch the change, we can be a part of it, throwing stones at it isn't positive or productive though.

Speaking of high dollar E Bikes, I was browsing Officina Battaglin's web site, awesome custom steel bikes there. And they too have a bespoke E Bike. Check it out. Not for me, but for those inclined, it's a stunner:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/attac...1&d=1695258376

https://officinabattaglin.com/produc...l-bikes/fenix/

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by markdjr

This thread shouldn't be debating the values of ebikes in general, other threads for that. This one should be focused on the Moots ebike specifically and in my opinion, another big miss from these guys.

What were their other big misses?

[EB]

Originally Posted by markdjr

This thread shouldn't be debating the values of ebikes in general, other threads for that. This one should be focused on the Moots ebike specifically and in my opinion, another big miss from these guys.

Policing a paceline forum thread is usually about as successful as a breakaway in a Cat 3 crit.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by markdjr

This Battaglin is a perfect example of what this bike should have been, only in Ti. The idea that they would have had to make the bike too stiff to accomodate the torque and weight is absurd. Humans are putting out much more than 60-85nm of Tq on analog bikes without issue and the added weight is negligible relative to disparities in rider weight.

This thread shouldn't be debating the values of ebikes in general, other threads for that. This one should be focused on the Moots ebike specifically and in my opinion, another big miss from these guys.

The Battaglin uses a hub motor - those are somewhat okay for road-only applications - they feel like someone is pushing you from behind and don’t generate much torque, plus they have less battery range.

For gravel use and just in general, the mid-drive motors win - more torque, more range, more natural feel. And those just work better with molded carbon than they ever will with metal - absent some breakthrough in battery or motor tech.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Gwerziou

E-bikes certainly have value as a form of transportation for the masses. I think of them as more 'bicycle adjacent' rather than bicycles per se. The value for those with health issues that preclude cycling is significant, offering them a bicycle-like experience.

They do push the actual bicycle to a 'second-tier' status on the nominal bike paths in the urban area that I commute in - now heavy motorized vehicles with sometimes clueless operators are right on the bike paths: look out.

To me, the most appealing thing about them is that you don't need a license and insurance. This is a huge advantage over motorcycles, which have those costs attached and also can't ride on bike paths etc. I have to hand it to the smart minds that found a way to introduce motorized vehicles that skirt regulation and licensure and can run freely on the paths, sidewalks, streets, and trails of my area.

Here in Massachusetts, there are separate categories for Electric Bicycles and Motorized Bicycles. Only Class 1 and Class 2 e-bikes are considered Electric Bicycles, so this new Moots (a Class 3 e-bike) is categorized as a Motorized bicycle. Motorized bicycles must be registered and have a registration number sticker or number plate affixed, riders must have a license, and they cannot be ridden on off-street bike paths or anywhere motor vehicles are prohibited. I've seen multiple un-registered Class 3 e-bikes ridden on Massachusetts streets. Some riders may actually be ignorant of the laws (hey, it's got pedals, so it's a bicycle, isn't?) and others may simple not care.

[Tim Porter]

Originally Posted by redir

Very nice set up you have there!

My only point, thinking as the marketing department of a bike company, is how many of you guys are out there though? I think it's fantastic that you still ride 45 miles at 71 years old. I think the Paceline even has an 80+ year old IIRC. But you guys are a rare breed. I just can't see how this will work for Moots especially as they are kind of late to the game and there are many other options like your Trek already out there as well as a sort of iconic custom Ti company crossing the line. But what do I know?

All good points. I know of a handful of older riders near me in a relatively affluent area, but I think your points are quite valid as to the size of this cohort. Tim

[callmeishmael]

Originally Posted by Eli Bingham

Policing a paceline forum thread is usually about as successful as a breakaway in a Cat 3 crit.

No, it seems much harder. I've seen Cat 3 breakaways stick

[markdjr]

This example is not ideal, I would hope that Moots could have done a bit better, but at least its a proof of concept. Personally I think if they wanted to manage tube dimensions they could have split the battery between the top tube and downtube.

[uber]

I really enjoyed the comparison to Porsche. In 2022, only 13% of sales were for 911’s. Had Porsche not embraced the SUV market they might not be around today still making 911’s. I don’t know how to run a (bike) company. My 2023 Vamoots CRD is one of the nicest riding bikes I’ve owned. If selling carbon e-bikes allows the company to stay in business and still make the bikes I enjoy, so be it. I would prefer to see Moots as a niche Ti frame builder, but the world doesn’t seem to do what I want a lot of the time. Cheers.

[kiwisimon]

Originally Posted by markdjr

.
This thread shouldn't be debating the values of ebikes in general, other threads for that. This one should be focused on the Moots ebike specifically and in my opinion, another big miss from these guys.

What other big misses?

[d_douglas]

Originally Posted by uber

I really enjoyed the comparison to Porsche. In 2022, only 13% of sales were for 911’s. Had Porsche not embraced the SUV market they might not be around today still making 911’s. I don’t know how to run a (bike) company. My 2023 Vamoots CRD is one of the nicest riding bikes I’ve owned. If selling carbon e-bikes allows the company to stay in business and still make the bikes I enjoy, so be it. I would prefer to see Moots as a niche Ti frame builder, but the world doesn’t seem to do what I want a lot of the time. Cheers.

This is a good point. I find that ebike unappealing, but I still think they make amazing looking ti bikes, and I doubt that will change. I guess the ebike market will allow them to keep making the ti bikes?!