OT: Ray, how's your Bitcoin investment going?

[Pete Mckeon]

I have seen it AND SUPPORT/AGREE. with Aneida except I Use USA $$ NOT BITCOIN OR FRNS but could be not fully understanding Frns -----&&&. but as to Bitcoins ! They are being hyped for no monetary reason for us

Originally Posted by Louis

ACA was designed such that for those who did not support Obama costs would go up and coverage would go down. Those who did vote for him get it for $50 a month and everything is covered, including $10,000 bikes every other year, since cycling improves your health.

[fuzzalow]

@ 1centaur: As noted in my post #101, I was not taking a position that health care services should be provided on a non-profit basis. That will not be feasible within the culture and traditions of US society.

I do not understand where you are going with your post on for-profit versus non-profit and the consequence of spending limit caps on health care coverage. There is no controversy that there are finite resources available to anyone.

It is consistent that if health care were enabled to leverage government pricing power such as found with the Medicaid/Medicare programs, health care costs would be decreased considerably as compared to what an individual patient is forced to pay under their own coverage. Under this scenario the extent and duration of heath care might be extended for a given spending limit given the pricing structure advantages the patient rather than corporate margins.

Prescription drugs are expensive relative to other modern, industrialized nations because the US leaves prices to market competition among pharmaceutical companies. Allowing this however opens up all manner of manipulations.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . . but after reading the whole thing I see no reason to. The initial run was a bit, uh, contentious, but this latest conversation is for the most part civil, courteous, and fascinating. Just please let's keep it that way. Offering contrasting, well-spoken viewpoints on a variety of subjects--not just cycling--is one of the best things about this forum.

Thanks.

Now my two cents . . . Regardless of all the bitcoin, medical costs and insurance, and inflation discussion, capitalism is, at it's heart, a competition. There are winners and losers in competitions. Eventually there's only one winner.

The role of our government has been to represent the people's interests--BUT it has also been to slow down that competition so the largest number of competitors continue to benefit. Over the last 50 years, monied interests have corrupted our government to the point where it is worthless in that particular duty. Anybody that believes we still live in a true democracy on a national level needs to pull their head out of the sand.

Liken it to the Tour de France. Everybody starts out equal, and there are interim winners for each stage. But at the end of 20 stages, there's only one big winner in the yellow jersey.

Well, our capitalistic economy "Tour de USA" is way past stage ten, and the majority of the players in this race are realizing they are going to be losers--and that the clear winners have been cheating. Not only that, but they've bought off the referees.

The rest of the riders are getting angry. So far they're just grousing. But if things don't change they are going to get angrier and eventually start expressing that anger in other ways. It may well turn out that capitalism doesn't work any better than communism as a governmental/economic system. It is just taking longer for that to play out than it did for Stalin & Co. The next hundred years in this country could be very interesting--and increasingly polarized, contentious, and violent.

As for medical costs, they are possibly THE prime example of an area where the market forces just plain don't work. Why? Because the ultimate product is the continuation of life and good health itself. Nobody but nobody is going to argue that anybody should be left to die in order to save money for the rest of the majority. It is politically not possible. Witness the reaction whenever anybody mentions medical care rationing in any form. NO amount of money is too much to spend in his country if it keeps somebody alive--even if their quality of life is that of a vegetable. The health care industry knows that and that's why they can charge almost whatever they want. I don't think it's a conscious action and they wouldn't call it that, but that's the end result, and it's the 500 lb. gorilla in the health care debate that nobody wants to talk about. Instead they'd rather complain about insurance costs and blah, blah, blah, rather than acknowledging the true cost driver.

BBD

[witcombusa]

[QUOTE=BumbleBeeDave;1491448The role of our government has been to represent the people's interests--BBD[/QUOTE]


Really?


Since when?


More correct would be, "The role of our government historically has been to represent their interests", read $$$ in their pockets (or offshore accounts)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . it should be to represent the people's interests. But aside from that I stand by my comments.

BBD

[Ahneida Ride]

We have the very best politicians that frns can buy !

[Louis]

Originally Posted by Ahneida Ride

We have the very best politicians that frns can buy !

I think we can all agree on that.

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

. . . it should be to represent the people's interests. But aside from that I stand by my comments.

BBD

Originally Posted by Ahneida Ride

We have the very best politicians that frns can buy !

Very true. We, as a country, have created a terrible mess.

Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. - John F. Kennedy

There is nothing that we, as a nation, cannot come together with and fix. But the biggest first step to make is to make a fractured, disengaged electorate become less so. I have not a clue as to how to go about doing this. I keep hoping that voters get frustrated and angry enough that they in exasperation get more informed and involved than seems currently to be the case. Hasn't happened yet.

BTW, there are people in politics that are honest and are trying to do the right thing. Kudos to Hoboken Mayor Dawn Zimmer for representing the interests of her city rather than the interests of a real estate developer that Governor Christie works with/for. But she is small beans in the bigger picture and no doubt her next reelection she will face an opponent with ample campaign financing. We, the voters, lose good people like her when we don't pay attention.

Impossible to separate money from politics, best that can be hoped for is to limit and contain its influence. But it has got to start with us.

[djg]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

. . . . but after reading the whole thing I see no reason to. The initial run was a bit, uh, contentious, but this latest conversation is for the most part civil, courteous, and fascinating. Just please let's keep it that way. Offering contrasting, well-spoken viewpoints on a variety of subjects--not just cycling--is one of the best things about this forum.

Thanks.

Now my two cents . . . Regardless of all the bitcoin, medical costs and insurance, and inflation discussion, capitalism is, at it's heart, a competition. There are winners and losers in competitions. Eventually there's only one winner.

The role of our government has been to represent the people's interests--BUT it has also been to slow down that competition so the largest number of competitors continue to benefit. Over the last 50 years, monied interests have corrupted our government to the point where it is worthless in that particular duty. Anybody that believes we still live in a true democracy on a national level needs to pull their head out of the sand.

Liken it to the Tour de France. Everybody starts out equal, and there are interim winners for each stage. But at the end of 20 stages, there's only one big winner in the yellow jersey.

Well, our capitalistic economy "Tour de USA" is way past stage ten, and the majority of the players in this race are realizing they are going to be losers--and that the clear winners have been cheating. Not only that, but they've bought off the referees.

The rest of the riders are getting angry. So far they're just grousing. But if things don't change they are going to get angrier and eventually start expressing that anger in other ways. It may well turn out that capitalism doesn't work any better than communism as a governmental/economic system. It is just taking longer for that to play out than it did for Stalin & Co. The next hundred years in this country could be very interesting--and increasingly polarized, contentious, and violent.

As for medical costs, they are possibly THE prime example of an area where the market forces just plain don't work. Why? Because the ultimate product is the continuation of life and good health itself. Nobody but nobody is going to argue that anybody should be left to die in order to save money for the rest of the majority. It is politically not possible. Witness the reaction whenever anybody mentions medical care rationing in any form. NO amount of money is too much to spend in his country if it keeps somebody alive--even if their quality of life is that of a vegetable. The health care industry knows that and that's why they can charge almost whatever they want. I don't think it's a conscious action and they wouldn't call it that, but that's the end result, and it's the 500 lb. gorilla in the health care debate that nobody wants to talk about. Instead they'd rather complain about insurance costs and blah, blah, blah, rather than acknowledging the true cost driver.

BBD

Yeah, this is all really genius material and not the least little bit contentious.

Might you add me to the list of folks requesting that the thread be closed?

And to AHR -- no doubt you are a great guy in person, smart, thoughtful, etc. People who've met you like you, and I'm sorry I've not had the pleasure. But this is a board for cyclists; if conversation does stray a bit, we're nonetheless supposed to avoid contentious (most?) political discussions; and some of us thought that the fringe view f.r.n. rant got old well before its ten thousandth reiteration. I would ask you to consider your role as moderator on the way to considering that you just never again post on this topic on this board.

So now I'm insulting two moderators (and I've met BBD, and I have a personal opinion that he's a good guy), and maybe I'll get the boot for this, but for crying out loud, people . . .

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by djg

Yeah, this is all really genius material and not the least little bit contentious.

Might you add me to the list of folks requesting that the thread be closed?

Respectfully, rather than sarcasm, might you state you objections so we know where you are coming from...other than the fact you are unhappy?

It is offseason for us Paceliners situated in the Northern Hemisphere, fer cryin' out loud. There are plenty of threads about buying bike stuff. Bandwidth is cheap. I read nothing in this thread approaching a flame-war. Tell me what you are angry at.

P.S. If this thread should somehow be deemed to be locked by the Mods - please may there be an reason given as to why.

I say this because it is unjust that a thread be locked if it were the result of actions taken "Behind the scenes" based on complaints voiced solely to the Mods, rather than objections at least voiced out in the open, public forum first. All posts are open to public scrutiny including contrary views or complaints.

[Pete Mckeon]

come down here and I will provide a couch and many glasses of red.

this is freedom of expression not censorship, as well as no personal attacks

chill, read, think, and Many things are done well and some not but better than MOST when one looks at a macro view. Congress and Senate has been asleep in 2013 on everything that requires a vote AND it is cold and snow here
but enough food and wine

BBDave and the other moderators do a good job.

Originally Posted by djg

Yeah, this is all really genius material and not the least little bit contentious.

Might you add me to the list of folks requesting that the thread be closed?

And to AHR -- no doubt you are a great guy in person, smart, thoughtful, etc. People who've met you like you, and I'm sorry I've not had the pleasure. But this is a board for cyclists; if conversation does stray a bit, we're nonetheless supposed to avoid contentious (most?) political discussions; and some of us thought that the fringe view f.r.n. rant got old well before its ten thousandth reiteration. I would ask you to consider your role as moderator on the way to considering that you just never again post on this topic on this board.

So now I'm insulting two moderators (and I've met BBD, and I have a personal opinion that he's a good guy), and maybe I'll get the boot for this, but for crying out loud, people . . .

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by djg

-Might you add me to the list of folks requesting that the thread be closed?

-And to AHR -- no doubt you are a great guy in person, smart, thoughtful, etc. People who've met you like you, and I'm sorry I've not had the pleasure. But this is a board for cyclists; if conversation does stray a bit, we're nonetheless supposed to avoid contentious (most?) political discussions; and some of us thought that the fringe view f.r.n. rant got old well before its ten thousandth reiteration. I would ask you to consider your role as moderator on the way to considering that you just never again post on this topic on this board.

Don't agree about closure..good thread, not mean and snipping yet.

Yup, My Opinion also, and like Opinions, ya know.

[verticaldoug]

I have nothing to add but some humor.
Just buy the dip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jllJ-HeErjU

[sg8357]

Originally Posted by Ahneida Ride

We have the very best politicians that frns can buy !

The politicos are getting smarter, extortion is replacing bribery.

http://www.amazon.com/Extortion-Poli.../dp/0544103343

[djg]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

Respectfully, rather than sarcasm, might you state you objections so we know where you are coming from...other than the fact you are unhappy?

It is offseason for us Paceliners situated in the Northern Hemisphere, fer cryin' out loud. There are plenty of threads about buying bike stuff. Bandwidth is cheap. I read nothing in this thread approaching a flame-war. Tell me what you are angry at.

P.S. If this thread should somehow be deemed to be locked by the Mods - please may there be an reason given as to why.

I say this because it is unjust that a thread be locked if it were the result of actions taken "Behind the scenes" based on complaints voiced solely to the Mods, rather than objections at least voiced out in the open, public forum first. All posts are open to public scrutiny including contrary views or complaints.

Fair enough, and I do apologize.

If some of this strikes me very differently from the way it strikes others, then plainly it's the case that it strikes others differently from the way it strikes me. Sorry to insult good folks making a good faith effort at civil discussion.

I find myself in an odd position -- some things to which I think I devote serious attention -- say, at work -- are things of some general interest that I just should not address, at all, in a general discussion forum such as this. But many folks no doubt find themselves in similar positions.

Sorry again, I'll drop from the thread, but drop my objections at the same time.