Favorite discontinued cycling product

[krooj]

Originally Posted by nspace

Chris King singlespeed cogs.

...and a bunch of other CK spare parts which was the reason I bought CK hubs in the first place. Never again.

Same. Like, would it kill them to batch low-volume requests? Gather a series of orders throughout the year for certain things: Campy FH bodies, low hole count rim brake hubs, then just do a twice yearly run. No need for fancy colors or anything like that, but they have such a ****ty habit of abandoning older platforms and it really drives folks away.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

How did you determine that the Avocet 50 is accurate? Determining altitude gain is not as easy as it sounds due to the "coastline paradox" (this has been discussed in previous threads).

In particular, the Avocet 50's hysteresis function was crude, and can cause many changes in altitude to be ignored. Specifically, the Avocet 50 will not accumulate any altitude gain of less than 30 feet. As an extreme example, if you rode a route that was a like a sawtooth with a sequence of many hills that were 25 feet tall, each with a grade of 20% grade, the Avocet would not accumulate any climbing at all. The Avocet 50 was probably fine if all climbs on the route were large, but it may not work as well on routes with many small undulations.

The fake altitude gain caused by adding in "noise" makes the whole thing much less accurate than some small amount of altitude not counted due to the Avocet's noise filter. The Avocet may not have been perfect, but I maintain it was still more accurate than any other bike computer to date. There was a brand of bike computer that was popular back in the day (Cateye maybe) and had a barometric sensor but no noise filtering. The amount of altitude gain recorded with it was rediculously, unbelievably high as compared to the Avocet 50 on a hilly, long ride.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by MikeD

The fake altitude gain caused by adding in "noise" makes the whole thing much less accurate than some small amount of altitude not counted due to the Avocet's noise filter. The Avocet may not have been perfect, but I maintain it was still more accurate than any other bike computer to date. There was a brand of bike computer that was popular back in the day (Cateye maybe) and had a barometric sensor but no noise filtering. The amount of altitude gain recorded with it was rediculously, unbelievably high as compared to the Avocet 50 on a hilly, long ride.

So, no data, just a "hunch"? The Avocet 50 had a very low sampling rate, and a slow processing rate in general, so it couldn't use much filtering and still be responsive. Instead, it relied on large hysteresis bands for stability, which resulted in missing small changes in altitude. Modern altimeter computers sample much faster, and have the processing power for more effective filtering, so they can measure altitude and accumulate altitude gains with higher resolution.

I don't recall that Cateye had an altitude measuring computer back then. Maybe you are thinking of the Ciclo? The Avocet was the first cycling computer to incorporate a barometric altimeter, while the Ciclo measured altitude gain via a different method. The Ciclo used an inclinometer, and measured distance travel times the sine of the angle of incline. This proved to prone to a lot of error, and didn't last long on the market.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

So, no data, just a "hunch"? The Avocet 50 had a very low sampling rate, and a slow processing rate in general, so it couldn't use much filtering and still be responsive. Instead, it relied on large hysteresis bands for stability, which resulted in missing small changes in altitude. Modern altimeter computers sample much faster, and have the processing power for more effective filtering, so they can measure altitude and accumulate altitude gains with higher resolution.

I don't recall that Cateye had an altitude measuring computer back then. Maybe you are thinking of the Ciclo? The Avocet was the first cycling computer to incorporate a barometric altimeter, while the Ciclo measured altitude gain via a different method. The Ciclo used an inclinometer, and measured distance travel times the sine of the angle of incline. This proved to prone to a lot of error, and didn't last long on the market.

I compared to topo maps and ridewithgps. The Avocet 50 compared favorably. What have you got?

Cateye did indeed make an altimeter bike computer. https://yarchive.net/bike/altimeter.html

You need to get off this idea of counting small changes in altitude with a barometric (pressure) sensor. Even on a level course, there will be small variations in atmospheric pressure and that "noise" would be counted as fake elevation gain without filtering such as what the Avocet 50 has. You should read what Jobst Brandt wrote who designed and patented the product.

[nspace]

Originally Posted by krooj

Same. Like, would it kill them to batch low-volume requests? Gather a series of orders throughout the year for certain things: Campy FH bodies, low hole count rim brake hubs, then just do a twice yearly run. No need for fancy colors or anything like that, but they have such a ****ty habit of abandoning older platforms and it really drives folks away.

Yup. I won’t buy their products anymore as a result. Other companies do a better job at long term compatibility and supporting more niche offerings for sure.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by MikeD

You need to get off this idea of counting small changes in altitude with a barometric (pressure) sensor. Even on a level course, there will be small variations in atmospheric pressure and that "noise" would be counted as fake elevation gain without filtering such as what the Avocet 50 has. You should read what Jobst Brandt wrote who designed and patented the product.

Altitude gained is altitude gained, whether it is in small increments or large. Ignoring altitude gain just because you don't think it is worthy is not intellectually honest. Yes, you can argue that small changes in altitude don't make much difference, but you can't argue that they didn't happen.

The circuits and algorithms in the Avocet 50 are now over 30 years old. Circuits and algorithms have advanced in the meantime, and have left the Avocet behind.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by christian

That was a design decision and part of Jobst's/Avocet's patent. Jobst believed that those were not really hilly rides.

I quote:

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: cycle computer
Date: 21 Feb 2000 23:41:33 GMT

The AVO50 makes use of a patented accumulator that is essential for
reliable climb accumulation in that it does not record bumps in the
road that are less than 10 meters (RR overpasses) while recording
continuous climbs entirely.

man that guy sounds like he was a complete arse in many ways..

back on topic- I miss the Salsa designs (branding, advertising, etc) of the 90s, 2000s.. The "Moto" days as well as the Campeon, Pistola, etc (orig Adventure By Bike) days..

[christian]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Altitude gained is altitude gained, whether it is in small increments or large. Ignoring altitude gain just because you don't think it is worthy is not intellectually honest. Yes, you can argue that small changes in altitude don't make much difference, but you can't argue that they didn't happen.

The circuits and algorithms in the Avocet 50 are now over 30 years old. Circuits and algorithms have advanced in the meantime, and have left the Avocet behind.

All of this is technically correct (which is obviously the best kind of correct), but there has to be some level of altitude gain which is anecdotally "flat" even if it's not technically flat.

I mean, if I ride 100 miles, and each foot I ride has an exact increase and decrease of 0.125", that's 5500 feet of climbing. But every person in the world would call that a flat ride.

[christian]

Originally Posted by fourflys

man that guy sounds like he was a complete arse in many ways..

I had my share of discussions with Jobst on r.b.r, but he was brilliant, funny, inspiring, and the ur-God of the current gravel riding movement. He was cool as ****.

[Plum Hill]

Assos F1._S5 bibs.
Everything since them seems like a pair of shorts with straps sewn on.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by christian

I had my share of discussions with Jobst on r.b.r, but he was brilliant, funny, inspiring, and the ur-God of the current gravel riding movement. He was cool as ****.

fair enough.. maybe he was someone you had to converse with to appreciate, but anything I've read about the guy makes me think he was a jerk to many.. I can appreciate strong opinions, but the things I've read makes me think he would make you "feel less than" if you didn't measure up to his expectations.. I hope I'm wrong on that..

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by Plum Hill

Assos F1._S5 bibs.
Everything since them seems like a pair of shorts with straps sewn on.

even the current Assos stuff? I've never ridden any Assos bibs, but my couple pair of older Giordana FR-C bibs feel fantastic compared to some of my other bibs, I think what you are describing (had never thought of it that way, just knew they feel great)

[goonster]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Altitude gained is altitude gained, whether it is in small increments or large. Ignoring altitude gain just because you don't think it is worthy is not intellectually honest.

I'll see your "intellectually honest" and raise you a "meaningful to the human experience."

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Circuits and algorithms have advanced in the meantime, and have left the Avocet behind.

Have they, though? I'm not so sure.

I've been waaaay down this rabbit hole fairly recently (with flow measurement and accumulation), and it turns out that if you count the smallest increments, it just doesn't match what you weigh in the collecting container. There are hardware errors that can't be compensated with software, and the best solution ends up being more about the big-picture choices that Jobst made.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by fourflys

fair enough.. maybe he was someone you had to converse with to appreciate, but anything I've read about the guy makes me think he was a jerk to many.. I can appreciate strong opinions, but the things I've read makes me think he would make you "feel less than" if you didn't measure up to his expectations.. I hope I'm wrong on that..

Jobst has a biography in print HERE.

This thread just reminded me of the book, and I ordered a copy!

[PacNW2Ford]

Bicycle Guide Magazine