OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by Dlevy05

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Limiting factors to EVB production are the lithium itself - which there isn't enough in the world to sustain vehicle production in the world at our current rates of automotive use. And nickel - which is scarce but also critically underproduced currently.

Countries want to scale lithium mine production and gain access to lithium mining concessions and engage in active extraction because controlling the world's lithium is just as important for EVBs as it is for the military - as lithium is an essential component in certain types of warhead construction. Allowing for the extraction of lithium through induced demand for EVB production through the taxation of other forms of transport decreases the material cost/unit for the defence industry.

I thought Lithium-6 was just needed to make tritium for the boosting the yield of fission and fusion bombs. Since only about 5% of lithium is Lithium-6, you should be able to recycle the 95% of Lithium-7 for batteries. Or am I wrong here?

There are huge deposits of Lithium in the Manono region of the DRC (LCT - Lithium, caesium and tantalum around tin deposts) which the Chinese are trying to control and fighting with Western Miners.(or my preferred verb stealing)

[benb]

Lithium just isn't that rare. The US has lots of it and we ramped production up a lot in the mid 20th century for defense and then ramped it back down when warhead production dropped off.

One thing about these chicken little screeds about how new things (EVs) cannot possibly work is they show a distinct inability to understand progress.

Things do not stand still and they don't stay the same forever. Any shortcoming in any new technology is a target and smart people & companies work to fix it.

There's so much wailing and gnashing of teeth over support for new technologies and industries but for some reason it's so hard for people to see how much we support and prop up the incumbent old technologies and industries.

[cmg]

if you look at an electric car as a long term item, say 18 to 24 years, then it would make more sense. buy it for $40k, 8 years later replace battery for $15k then 8 years later replace battery again $15k and so on and so on.... who cares about what's it worth, don't ever sell it, replace what's needed and use it some more. way better than replacing an ICE vehicle every 8 years at $45K +. EV are simpler vehicles compared to most ICE units. Less to go wrong, not a thousand codes to decipher when the check engine light goes on. Charging the battery yea, that can be done using utility power but the owner could also put up collectors and a power wall dedicated for the EV. battery tech is ever evolving, their powered by lithium now but that will change as more providers enter the market. BYD the Chinese ev manufacturer is in the american market, they will become the predominant seller do to price and volume. they'll follow the Hyundai, Kia market model. look at electric bikes/motorcycles they're outselling all other bikes. the transition is going to happen.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by cmg

if you look at an electric car as a long term item, say 18 to 24 years, then it would make more sense. buy it for $40k, 8 years later replace battery for $15k then 8 years later replace battery again $15k and so on and so on.... who cares about what's it worth, don't ever sell it, replace what's needed and use it some more. way better than replacing an ICE vehicle every 8 years at $45K +. EV are simpler vehicles compared to most ICE units. Less to go wrong, not a thousand codes to decipher when the check engine light goes on. Charging the battery yea, that can be done using utility power but the owner could also put up collectors and a power wall dedicated for the EV. battery tech is ever evolving, their powered by lithium now but that will change as more providers enter the market. BYD the Chinese ev manufacturer is in the american market, they will become the predominant seller do to price and volume. they'll follow the Hyundai, Kia market model. look at electric bikes/motorcycles they're outselling all other bikes. the transition is going to happen.

One of the things we don’t yet understand is how long the electronics will last and/or be supported. We know that our smartphones and tablets, etc. have a finite lifespan, in part because the manufacturer either can’t or won’t support them at some point. My guess is that there will be an uproar if these aren’t supported for at least 15 years.

That said, it’s not unique to EVs. Almost everything in the automotive world is now sold with touch screens and fewer and fewer physical controls. How that turns out over the long term is anyone’s guess.

Anyway, keeping anything on the road for 15 years let alone 40 is a challenge.


One word: Corrosion.

As far is minerals and mining, that’s obviously dirty. So is oil extraction. Hopefully we can get to a place where battery recycling becomes a big thing and the mineral supply chain can become more and more a loop-style chain. The constituent elements are indeed too valuable to just landfill them, in addition to likely toxicity.

[robt57]

Ignorance isn't so bliss after all.

I mean this as a ZERO derogatory remark.

Originally Posted by benb

Lithium just isn't that rare. The US has lots of it and we ramped production up a lot in the mid 20th century for defense and then ramped it back down when warhead production dropped off.

One thing about these chicken little screeds about how new things (EVs) cannot possibly work is they show a distinct inability to understand progress.

Things do not stand still and they don't stay the same forever. Any shortcoming in any new technology is a target and smart people & companies work to fix it.

There's so much wailing and gnashing of teeth over support for new technologies and industries but for some reason it's so hard for people to see how much we support and prop up the incumbent old technologies and industries.

[dancinkozmo]

...

[robt57]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Anyway, keeping anything on the road for 15 years let alone 40 is a challenge.

The guy I bought our 78 MG from tried to keep using the car as work ride. He gave up, and just to use it sporadically as we have is a 50/50 shot a use will go with out incidence. ;O

Romanticism gone amuck.

Approaching both of us being retired, me already... I sold off my PHEV and got a 2018 Sedona LX. It should run longer than the Plug in Hybrid and cheaper to fix on the tail end. The Loaded Out Pacifica VS LX KIA future problems of many accessories. LX level with much less consideration for that I'm betting as well. How many loaded out 20+ year old cars have you seen with even 80-90% of 'loaded' systems still working?

I drive 200-300 miler a month, so a new $60k car every few years makes zero sense going forward. I was OK with it up till I retired. Rather go to the next UCI worlds with that money, or some TDF stages.

[Dlevy05]

Originally Posted by saab2000

One of the things we don’t yet understand is how long the electronics will last and/or be supported. We know that our smartphones and tablets, etc. have a finite lifespan, in part because the manufacturer either can’t or won’t support them at some point. My guess is that there will be an uproar if these aren’t supported for at least 15 years.

That said, it’s not unique to EVs. Almost everything in the automotive world is now sold with touch screens and fewer and fewer physical controls. How that turns out over the long term is anyone’s guess.

Anyway, keeping anything on the road for 15 years let alone 40 is a challenge.


One word: Corrosion.

As far is minerals and mining, that’s obviously dirty. So is oil extraction. Hopefully we can get to a place where battery recycling becomes a big thing and the mineral supply chain can become more and more a loop-style chain. The constituent elements are indeed too valuable to just landfill them, in addition to likely toxicity.

This is a really good point - we can reference tech companies like apple with support and with current estimates for planned failure/vehicle use lifetimes in ICE vehicles... in either case they don't exceed ten years / 100k mi max...

But in the case of planned obsolescence becomes something the customer cannot resolve, increasing the forced consumption for a means of transportation that if was a proper ICE - could last for anywhere between 2-10x its lifetime if it was built well and maintained properly.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by Dlevy05

This is a really good point - we can reference tech companies like apple with support and with current estimates for planned failure/vehicle use lifetimes in ICE vehicles... in either case they don't exceed ten years / 100k mi max...

But in the case of planned obsolescence becomes something the customer cannot resolve, increasing the forced consumption for a means of transportation that if was a proper ICE - could last for anywhere between 2-10x its lifetime if it was built well and maintained properly.

Lots of Toyotas in this category. Their quality and durability are well known.

Clearly basic maintenance is essential for any vehicle, regardless of propulsion method.

[robt57]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Lots of Toyotas in this category. Their quality and durability are well known.

Clearly basic maintenance is essential for any vehicle, regardless of propulsion method.

Side note on that point. Our Bolt, other than tire rotation and replacement, alignment from hits, and cabin filter changes, there is little maintenance at all. 150k mile HV plant coolant change seem the biggest thing so far as I can ascertain.

Just viable data points for consideration.

Another side note: A lot of folks seem to beat cars to death. Life time of hard starts, stops, including while traversing poor road spots. If you just drive easy, your cost per mile will be significantly less.
Smaller lighter cars are not going to endure this life like a F-250 certainly.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by robt57

Side note on that point. Our Bolt, other than tire rotation and replacement, alignment from hits, and cabin filter changes, there is little maintenance at all. 150k mile HV plant coolant change seem the biggest thing so far as I can ascertain.

Just viable data points for consideration.

Another side note: A lot of folks seem to beat cars to death. Life time of hard starts, stops, including while traversing poor road spots. If you just drive easy, your cost per mile will be significantly less.
Smaller lighter cars are not going to endure this life like a F-250 certainly.

Absolutely. I’ve had near zero maintenance on my Y. I’ll bring it in in the spring for a service on the brake pistons and a new cabin air filter. That is nearly all it needs with any regularity.

[Dlevy05]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Lots of Toyotas in this category. Their quality and durability are well known.

Clearly basic maintenance is essential for any vehicle, regardless of propulsion method.

Sure - Japanese cars in general, but even older BMW's and Mercedes USED to be built like that too.

In Africa where I've lived and worked for 15 years it's very common to see 30-50 year old 500k mile examples of German, French, and Japanese cars used as taxis today.

For example, throughout my childhood, my father used a 30-40 year old Alfa Romeo to commute to work every day - outside of basic maintenance and repairs the car was perfect and never left us stranded.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Absolutely. I’ve had near zero maintenance on my Y. I’ll bring it in in the spring for a service on the brake pistons and a new cabin air filter. That is nearly all it needs with any regularity.

You ought to rotate the tires probably every 5000 miles. EVs are a lot heavier and eat up tires faster, plus tires are more expensive.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by MikeD

You ought to rotate the tires probably every 5000 miles. EVs are a lot heavier and eat up tires faster, plus tires are more expensive.

I am aware of this and act “sort of accordingly”. Not quite that frequently but in fall and spring I swap wheels for all-season/summer tires and winter tires, which today in Chicago were great!

[C40_guy]

What is it with EV specific tires on EVs?

Son just bought an ID.4 and the 20" wheels take EV specific tires. "EVs are heavier." Crap...my SUVs are 1000#s heavier than the ID.4 and their SUV tires are like $100 less expensive per tire than similar brand/model EV tire...

Other than that, he likes it. It shares a garage with a very nicely specced Q5 3.0T Prestige.