(Rant warning) Rene Herse tires poorly designed for tubeless?

[Jan Heine]

You make a good point - some people have had little trouble with Tire 1 (which happens to be a stiff tire), then mount Tire 2 (which happens to be supple) and it doesn't stay on the rim. It's easy to assume that Tire 2 is somehow faulty, since Tire 1 stayed on the rim.

The reality is complex. This isn't just based on our testing, but Enve's as well. We sent them a few dozen tires that they tested on their wheels. They confirmed that

a) Rene Herse beads don't stretch once they have relaxed themselves after the first inflation. Basically, once the bead is stretched tight, it doesn't go any further.

Anybody who's had to mount Rene Herse tires on a rim that doesn't have a deep enough well, like an old Mavic MA-2/MA-40, has experienced this – the bead just doesn't stretch.

b) Casing stiffness contributes significantly to keeping a tire on the rim. That's the issue with supple tires – you remove that factor, and suddenly the rim/bead fit is much more important. In other words, if you mount a relatively stiff tire on an undersized rim, it'll be fine. If you use the same bead (material and diameter) on a supple tire, on the same rim, it may not be fine. Both Enve and our own testing showed a significant difference in blow-off pressure for our (ultra-supple) Extralight and our (a little less supple) Endurance casings. (Both were far above the 60 psi that we recommend as a maximum for tubeless installation.)

If it was just a simple matter of our tires having a more stretchy bead or larger diameter than, say Panaracer's tires, then it would be very easy for us to change that. It's not like we're stubbornly sticking to some stupid spec that doesn't work – we're trying to make tires that are more supple and faster than what other companies offer...

As with all high-performance components, the tolerances get tighter to more you push the envelope. If you have a rear derailleur with a steel bolt, you can force it into almost any derailleur hanger, no matter how mangled the threads. If your derailleur has a superlight titanium or even aluminum bolt, it'll snap if the hanger's threads aren't in good shape... You can say that it's a fault of the derailleur – since your previous derailleur worked fine – or you can accept that for a high-performance bike to work well, everything must be just right.

Anyhow, I appreciate the positive contributions here, and I also fully respect that not everybody will love our products.

Jan Heine
Rene Herse Cycles

Originally Posted by truth

Hi, Jan. Thanks for this and your other measured responses here. I'm a fan of the products you sell and of your periodical.

I do want to take issue with the logic you've expressed here and ask that you consider a different explanation.

Many people have noted here and elsewhere that for a given rim, other manufacturer's tires work fine and Rene Herse are a loose fit. That indicates it is not the rims, but the tires, that are at issue.

[Smitty2k1]

Thanks for chiming in Jan. Always nice to get the manufacturer's perspective on matters discussed in circles such as these. I wish more companies would participate in open forums (and not just post pictures on social media and call it community outreach).

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by Jan Heine

Anyhow, I appreciate the positive contributions here, and I also fully respect that not everybody will love our products.

Thanks for joining in.

I've used your tires in the past and do really like them - but I'm mostly mad at the bike industry. Bikes keep getting more expensive with continuing variance in quality, spec, choices, fitments, etc.... all things bad for the end user. I dont have this problem when I go to get tires for my car or motorcycle, and there's lots of bikes out there that cost more than either of them, and if my car kept eating the same part over and over it would be considered a lemon, and good luck getting parts after the bag of spares runs out.

[nalax]

I've run a couple pairs of Compass/RH TL tires and haven't had problems with fit or blow-off but the sidewalls are definitely not designed for sealant. The sealant weeping ends up looking pretty ugly on expensive tires.

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by .RJ

Thanks for joining in.

I've used your tires in the past and do really like them - but I'm mostly mad at the bike industry. Bikes keep getting more expensive with continuing variance in quality, spec, choices, fitments, etc.... all things bad for the end user. I dont have this problem when I go to get tires for my car or motorcycle, and there's lots of bikes out there that cost more than either of them, and if my car kept eating the same part over and over it would be considered a lemon, and good luck getting parts after the bag of spares runs out.

Agree there, I’m curious to try the Rene tires but given the tubeless issues and high price, no way I’ll ever try a $90 tire that may not work well, or flat and be ruined the first ride, when a $45 from specialized pops on tubeless without even sealant.

[benb]

The more Jan posts here the more I worry that proper engineering hasn't been done on the supple tires to ensure they're actually safe.

He's already said that the RH tires get made with the same dimensions as the Panaracers because the Panaracer tires do not have blow off problems.

And he's also acknowledgede that the weaker (more supple) sidewalls demand changes to to dimensions and tighter tolerances.

It really sounds like the combination of dimensions + more supple casings has not been fully tested.

This stuff is supposed to be fully tested at RH before sending the order to Panaracer.. it doesn't sound like that happens.. it sounds more like specifications were come up with, then the tires are manufactured, and then everyone gets to see what happens.

I think the thing to do here would be for RH to start actually testing this stuff, come up with a solid set of specifications for what is required of a rim to be safe with the super supple tires, and then start certifying rims that meet the RH specifications.

This is kind of the same thing as specialized cotton turbo tires + ENVE carbon rims with sharp unfinished edges. Either ENVE or Specialized needs to start listing/specifying which rims or tires are safe with their product. And it can't be a blacklist that grows as reports of accidents occur. It needs to be a whitelist that is tested & generated BEFORE customers get the tires or rims.

It can't be up to customers to find out whether it's safe or not by smacking the ground with their faces.

It's all *exactly* the model of nothing is properly tested because too much stuff is outsourced.

I'd bet dollars to donuts RH can't prototype a tire design change onsite whereas Panaracer can.. the Panaracer tires would then be much more solidly tested before a big production run.

It can never be repeated enough that all this increased risk is all in the name of "marginal gains". The gains are marginal, the risks are not.

If this ever gets ironed out and standards are fixed I'm willing to believe the standard could end up specifying a minimum casing stiffness for safety.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by benb

The more Jan posts here the more I worry that proper engineering hasn't been done

Its not just tires, the whole cycling industry is full of this nonsense. Nearly every frame manufacturer doesnt actually design the carbon layup, or the weld pattern, or the tubing, its all left up to the factories who figure it out.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by benb

The more Jan posts here the more I worry that proper engineering hasn't been done on the supple tires to ensure they're actually safe.

He's already said that the RH tires get made with the same dimensions as the Panaracers because the Panaracer tires do not have blow off problems.

And he's also acknowledgede that the weaker (more supple) sidewalls demand changes to to dimensions and tighter tolerances.

It really sounds like the combination of dimensions + more supple casings has not been fully tested.

This stuff is supposed to be fully tested at RH before sending the order to Panaracer.. it doesn't sound like that happens.. it sounds more like specifications were come up with, then the tires are manufactured, and then everyone gets to see what happens.

I think the thing to do here would be for RH to start actually testing this stuff, come up with a solid set of specifications for what is required of a rim to be safe with the super supple tires, and then start certifying rims that meet the RH specifications.

This is kind of the same thing as specialized cotton turbo tires + ENVE carbon rims with sharp unfinished edges. Either ENVE or Specialized needs to start listing/specifying which rims or tires are safe with their product. And it can't be a blacklist that grows as reports of accidents occur. It needs to be a whitelist that is tested & generated BEFORE customers get the tires or rims.

It can't be up to customers to find out whether it's safe or not by smacking the ground with their faces.

It's all *exactly* the model of nothing is properly tested because too much stuff is outsourced.

I'd bet dollars to donuts RH can't prototype a tire design change onsite whereas Panaracer can.. the Panaracer tires would then be much more solidly tested before a big production run.

It can never be repeated enough that all this increased risk is all in the name of "marginal gains". The gains are marginal, the risks are not.

If this ever gets ironed out and standards are fixed I'm willing to believe the standard could end up specifying a minimum casing stiffness for safety.

Or quit making such lightweight/supple tires.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by .RJ

Its not just tires, the whole cycling industry is full of this nonsense. Nearly every frame manufacturer doesnt actually design the carbon layup, or the weld pattern, or the tubing, its all left up to the factories who figure it out.

This is simply not true.

[denapista]

Originally Posted by charliedid

Or quit making such lightweight/supple tires.

Or just run Tubes...

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by denapista

Or just run Tubes...

Good point. I do.

[pdonk]

Question, anyone here have any experience with a "vintage" mtb rim and these tires?

I was thinking about getting a set of 26 inch natches pass tires for 26 inch rims.

Seeing the comment about beads not stretching for MA40s makes me wonder how difficult they'll be to go onto a set of 517s or old sun cr18s. I'll be using tubes.

[charliedid]

I’m in winter mode and running Ruffy Tuffy 28’s

Supple schmupple. #noflats

[Hilltopperny]

Originally Posted by pdonk

Question, anyone here have any experience with a "vintage" mtb rim and these tires?

I was thinking about getting a set of 26 inch natches pass tires for 26 inch rims.

Seeing the comment about beads not stretching for MA40s makes me wonder how difficult they'll be to go onto a set of 517s or old sun cr18s. I'll be using tubes.

I used the 26" tires on my Desalvo single speed 26er on Sun Rims tubed without any issues. The big thing with these supple tires is to make sure they are mounted properly from the get go.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by benb

The more Jan posts here the more I worry that proper engineering hasn't been done on the supple tires to ensure they're actually safe.

He's already said that the RH tires get made with the same dimensions as the Panaracers because the Panaracer tires do not have blow off problems.

And he's also acknowledgede that the weaker (more supple) sidewalls demand changes to to dimensions and tighter tolerances.

It really sounds like the combination of dimensions + more supple casings has not been fully tested.

This stuff is supposed to be fully tested at RH before sending the order to Panaracer.. it doesn't sound like that happens.. it sounds more like specifications were come up with, then the tires are manufactured, and then everyone gets to see what happens.

I think the thing to do here would be for RH to start actually testing this stuff, come up with a solid set of specifications for what is required of a rim to be safe with the super supple tires, and then start certifying rims that meet the RH specifications.

This is kind of the same thing as specialized cotton turbo tires + ENVE carbon rims with sharp unfinished edges. Either ENVE or Specialized needs to start listing/specifying which rims or tires are safe with their product. And it can't be a blacklist that grows as reports of accidents occur. It needs to be a whitelist that is tested & generated BEFORE customers get the tires or rims.

It can't be up to customers to find out whether it's safe or not by smacking the ground with their faces.

It's all *exactly* the model of nothing is properly tested because too much stuff is outsourced.

I'd bet dollars to donuts RH can't prototype a tire design change onsite whereas Panaracer can.. the Panaracer tires would then be much more solidly tested before a big production run.

It can never be repeated enough that all this increased risk is all in the name of "marginal gains". The gains are marginal, the risks are not.

If this ever gets ironed out and standards are fixed I'm willing to believe the standard could end up specifying a minimum casing stiffness for safety.

You are one of the most cogent thinkers on the site. I always enjoy reading your well reasoned responses. If you're not a lawyer, you missed your calling. OTH, it must be a real treat for your SIGO to have an argument with you.