Vintage Audio part 5 - Speakers

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by glepore

So, I'm making a venture into SET- I'm going to need an efficient speaker as my Ohm 4's are both too power hungry and a complex load. So, assuming that I want to do this in a "budget" fashion, what would the braintrust here recommend either used or diy? Something infinite baffle or? Drivers? How do the modern Klipsch designs sound (Crutchfield is a a dealer and has a local retail outlet)?

Modern Klipsch would pair up very nicely with a SET setup, as they are incredibly efficient and very sensitive to tube swapping, so you'll be able to dial in the sound you want by some simple experimenting.

A good amount of people love the Double Impacts by Tekton. I've never heard them, and the design is quite polarizing, but others swear by them and they make an 8ohm model with very high efficiency.

Sonus Faber, as someone suggested above are quite amazing speakers but in my experience they LOVE MOAR POWARR! But seriously, the more headroom an amp has the better the sound opens up. At lower volumes the soundstage is somewhat limited, again IMO. Others might feel differently.

[DarkStar]

Originally Posted by daker13

Well, a lot of audiophiles have a different paradigm of what live music is. For instance, anyone listening to chamber music, orchestral music, or acoustic jazz (50s-60s) doesn't want to listen to music through a PA system.

A more general question is, why don't more audiophiles use horn speakers? And the answer to that is, many people think they sound honky, squawky, and that they're fatiguing.

This isn't ALL horn speakers, and a lot of it depends on your amplifier; it's much less of an issue if you're using a SET.

While I really like how dynamic horn speakers sound, how alive they sound, most of the ones I've listened to ultimately leave me with the feeling that I'm being beaten over the head with the music. They're bright. Some of the more expensive horn speakers are supposed to be better when it comes to this.

One of these days I'm going to buy a pair of Lowther drivers and build myself some cabinets. I've never heard them, but they're supposed to be amazing. I'd pair it with a few watts of SETs or a Pass amp.

I know a bunch of people who really like Klipsch speakers and I've had a couple pairs of them at different times. They're often playing in my friend's record store and they always sound good. But, to me they sound bright. One of the things I like about the classic Snells and Audio Notes is that they sound pretty dynamic but are not fatiguing. I also have a lot of love for the BBC sound (Rogers/Spendor/Harbeth) but I find it can be a little laid back.

I use very large horn speakers, no squawk or honk, but then I've done extensive mods to the cabinet, horn, and XO to eliminate audible problems.

[daker13]

Originally Posted by kingpin75s

Yes. It seemingly has gotten to that point, but in my opinion most of the expensive NOS tubes I have heard, sound rolled off to me. They often have a blacker background but at the expense of being rolled off. Not saying there are not great NOS tubes out there by any means, but I would never presume they are better. Rare is just rare and expensive, not always better.

I really like the Genalex Gold Lions for modern tubes and surprisingly have had great luck with cheap JJs as well. They have replaced some very expensive NOS tubes I received with my systems or had in place for a bit on a borrow to buy where the owner wanted his "special" tubes back.

I have KT66 Gold Lions in my MC 240 and they are quite good. I think a lot of it has to do with the individual component and some of them do sound much better with with current production tubes, probably because they were 'voiced' with such tubes in the first place, so I definitely agree with you on that. I don't do much tube rolling these days, and I think new tubes have come a long way in the last 15 years. But a good Mullard or Telefunken or RT can really make a difference in a preamp... it just adds a certain ambience.

I have a ton of tubes around here, but I really need to get my tube tester sorted. It really has gotten too expensive. You used to be able to get a matched pair of NOS tubes for $70-80, and it was worth it. I love vacuum tubes.

[mcteague]

After living with open baffle dipole speakers, there is no going back to “monkey coffins”, AKA box speakers.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/au...ic_web3.htm#ll

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Orion-TSS-review.pdf

Tim

[Ken Robb]

What is the life cycle of various vacuum tubes? Do they improve as they break in from brand new, perform at their peak for X hours and then begin to decline? Do some amps have adjustments (bias?) to extend the time of peak performance?

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by Ken Robb

What is the life cycle of various vacuum tubes? Do they improve as they break in from brand new, perform at their peak for X hours and then begin to decline? Do some amps have adjustments (bias?) to extend the time of peak performance?

1. Don't remember (and/or not sure if there's a good metric that's independent of the equipment they're running in),
2. yes, and
3. yes.

fwiw every piece of tube equipment I've ever owned wound up with power tubes needing replacement sometime within the ~5-10 year period, and preamp tubes not needing replacement before the ~10 year mark.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by glepore

So, I'm making a venture into SET- I'm going to need an efficient speaker as my Ohm 4's are both too power hungry and a complex load. So, assuming that I want to do this in a "budget" fashion, what would the braintrust here recommend either used or diy? Something infinite baffle or? Drivers? How do the modern Klipsch designs sound (Crutchfield is a a dealer and has a local retail outlet)?

I can't speak to the modern Klipsch designs. My attitude is the used market is a much better place to buy speakers. You'll get a better value than buying new.

Budget + efficient = used Klipsch.

Small in size and price: Heresy's. 94dB/W/m. @ $450-$650/pr. This is what I own.

Larger but play lower, and even more efficient than the Heresy's: Quartets (harder to find), and the venerated, longstanding, and popular Forte's (can often be found at the same used price as Heresy's).

I bought a pair of Quartets for $250!, and they would rip your lungs out with 1 Watt input. Forte's are a big brother; 97-99dB/W/m. There's currently a pair in my state that are tempting at $550 a pair.

The Klipsch kg series are a good, non-Heritage series alternative. I prefer the passive radiator models such as the kg 3.2, 4, 4.2 (bought them for $325-play lower than the Heresy's and just as efficient), and 5.2's.

There's a pair of Forte's for sale in Philly at a very good price. Don't even think of asking to go lower. It would insult the owner and I wouldn't blame them. Here's another pair at a fair price.

Can't afford the Forte's or these Heresy's?; kg4's were popular, will save you money, have a smaller physical size than Forte's or Quartets, and got rave reviews in their day.

[glepore]

Thanks Peter. If I still lived in Philly, I'd be all over those Fortes. The kg4's look great too. The best I've been able to do locally is 750 for a nice set of Heresy's, so I'll keep looking...

Do you use a craiglist aggregator to search? Which one?

[Ken Robb]

There have been a few pairs of Heresy speakers around San Diego for $400-500 lately. The $400 pair had plain birch cabinets.

I read quite a few different opinions as to the desirability of the original vs. II vs. III versions. Lots of Klipsch fans think modification of crossovers by Krites and replacement of original tweeter/mid-range diaphragms with titanium ones is worthwhile. I haven't heard any of these tweaked versions.

[daker13]

Originally Posted by Ken Robb

What is the life cycle of various vacuum tubes? Do they improve as they break in from brand new, perform at their peak for X hours and then begin to decline? Do some amps have adjustments (bias?) to extend the time of peak performance?

Bob's estimates match my experience... small signal tubes last a long time, and power tubes less so--probably good to replace around the five year mark, depending on use. I've never had a tube tester in 20 years of tube listening, so I just replace some when I think about it.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by glepore

Thanks Peter. If I still lived in Philly, I'd be all over those Fortes. The kg4's look great too. The best I've been able to do locally is 750 for a nice set of Heresy's, so I'll keep looking...

Do you use a craiglist aggregator to search? Which one?

I normally use my local craigslist. Here's one U.S. nationwide craigslist search I've used.

Originally Posted by Ken Robb

There have been a few pairs of Heresy speakers around San Diego for $400-500 lately. The $400 pair had plain birch cabinets.

I read quite a few different opinions as to the desirability of the original vs. II vs. III versions. Lots of Klipsch fans think modification of crossovers by Krites and replacement of original tweeter/mid-range diaphragms with titanium ones is worthwhile. I haven't heard any of these tweaked versions.

Yeah; I think there's too much drama with the differences between the various versions. I don't go for the "upgrades" mentioned either. I think the only reason they're done is the Klipsch Heritage series speakers are easy to modify by hobbyists vis a vis, changing crossover components and drivers. I swear the first thing you'll hear if you buy a pair of used Klipsch's is, CHANGE THE CAPACITORS!, without having tested the existing capacitors. Sheesh.

The Heresy I's can be had for $400-$500 a pair, and the raw birch was sold so the buyer could stain or paint them to their desires. The raw birch was nicely finished as-is. The Heresy II's are made with MDF which is supposedly denser than birch making a less resonant cabinet. The usually sell for more on the used market. Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong with either version, especially considering new Heresy's go for $2k. The raw birch cabinets are easy to refinish, and the veneered versions relatively easy to repair or re-veneer if desired; both reasons the speakers are popular, besides their performance.

[William]

Boston Acoustics were mentioned a few times in the thread, anyone have any experience or knowledge on their Reference Series speakers?







William

[glepore]

Originally Posted by mcteague

After living with open baffle dipole speakers, there is no going back to “monkey coffins”, AKA box speakers.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/au...ic_web3.htm#ll

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Orion-TSS-review.pdf

Tim

Resurrecting this a bit. I've always loved dipole or omni radiators, ie Ohms, electrostatics, Maggies etc. but they're bloody inefficient. The above quoted post sent me down a rabbit hole where I discovered the "Betsy" a full range open baffle driver that believe it or not is $100/pair. Coupled with a sheet of birch ply and a couple of cheap dayton subs (the Betsy's are clean down to 80 hz but need a little help below) these things are flat out amazing. 94-96 db efficient, and they have a soundstage like the best dipoles-absolutely in the top 5% of speakers I've heard with acoustic music, and more than livable with electric stuff.
Sound flat out killer with tubes. All in $200/pair with baffles and helper amt tweeters (not really needed). Its almost unreal.

http://www.wildburroaudio.com/
http://www.caintuckaudio.com/

[mcteague]

Originally Posted by glepore

Resurrecting this a bit. I've always loved dipole or omni radiators, ie Ohms, electrostatics, Maggies etc. but they're bloody inefficient. The above quoted post sent me down a rabbit hole where I discovered the "Betsy" a full range open baffle driver that believe it or not is $100/pair. Coupled with a sheet of birch ply and a couple of cheap dayton subs (the Betsy's are clean down to 80 hz but need a little help below) these things are flat out amazing. 94-96 db efficient, and they have a soundstage like the best dipoles-absolutely in the top 5% of speakers I've heard with acoustic music, and more than livable with electric stuff.
Sound flat out killer with tubes. All in $200/pair with baffles and helper amt tweeters (not really needed). Its almost unreal.

http://www.wildburroaudio.com/
http://www.caintuckaudio.com/

Open baffle speakers really need to be heard to be appreciated for how real they can sound. I’m actually trying to sell my Orions in order to make room for Sigfried Linkwitz’s final design, the LX521.

http://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/...-dipole/195571

Tim

[mtechnica]

I need to get a tube amp for my heresies. Right now I have a tripath that drives them surprisingly well. Still miss my gigantic jbls that were too big to move though