2024+ Rim brake vs Disc brake catch-all

[El Chaba]

Originally Posted by merckx

Disc brakes evolved on road machines for the following reasons:

Address the heat challenges of rim brakes with carbon rims.

Address the decreased braking power when using rim brakes with wet plastic rims.

Address the space challenges when using larger volume tires with rim brakes.

Address the stagnant sales of bicycle equipment with the introduction of must-have technology.

Agreed. I can only add that the introduction of disc brakes meant that the wheels and bikes no longer shared inter-compatibility with their counterparts equipped with rim brakes. In the view of the industry, this rendered all rim brake bikes obsolete. This aspect was no doubt discussed in the various offices of Bike Industry, Incorporated. The incompatibility may not have been the main reason for implementation, but it was definitely not looked at as a disadvantage.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by merckx

Disc brakes evolved on road machines for the following reasons:

Address the heat challenges of rim brakes with carbon rims.

Address the decreased braking power when using rim brakes with wet plastic rims.

Ironically, the advantages of carbon rims is reduced weight and lower aero drag. But disc brakes add more weight than carbon rims remove, and even some of aero drag savings are cancelled out. So it is a somewhat zero sum game.

Originally Posted by merckx

Address the stagnant sales of bicycle equipment with the introduction of must-have technology.

Yes, this is a major advantage - to the bike sellers.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by El Chaba

Agreed. I can only add that the introduction of disc brakes meant that the wheels and bikes no longer shared inter-compatibility with their counterparts equipped with rim brakes. In the view of the industry, this rendered all rim brake bikes obsolete. This aspect was no doubt discussed in the various offices of Bike Industry, Incorporated. The incompatibility may not have been the main reason for implementation, but it was definitely not looked at as a disadvantage.

Most of the other bike technology changes required only changing the directly affected components, and maybe sometimes a few related components. Want to switch from downtube shifters to dual control shifters? Just replace the shifters. Want to switch to clipless pedals? Just get new pedals and shoes. Want to switch from shallow aluminum rims to deep carbon rims? Just replace the wheels (and maybe brake pads). Want electronic shifting? just replace the shifters and derailleurs. Want to switch to compact gearing? Just replace the cranks & chainrings. But switching to disc brakes essentially means an entire new bike, as it isn't economically feasible to replace only the affecte components (new frame, new fork, new wheels, new brake calipers & rotors, new brifters).

[prototoast]

My impression is that most people buy a bike complete and never swap any components beyond chains and tires (if that), and upgrading bikes or swapping components is the domain of enthusiasts who derive some enjoyment getting to try new things.

I suspect it is an excessively small sub-niche of customers who both want to be able to upgrade their bikes and want their bikes to remain largely unchanged.

[benb]

It just means you splash out on a whole new bike when it's time for the transition.

That's what I'm going to do. Still waiting though as my rim brake bike is fine.

But I sure as heck am not going to be "building from the frameset" unless I absolutely have to. If I'm going to be stuck with hoses through the bars/stem/frame I'm definitely buying a complete bike. (That's been rare for me)

I have had disc bikes (only MTB) for 18 years now and I have only ever had to change hoses 2x. One of those was just because I was replacing the entire brake system. (I had 2 sets of hydraulic brakes in 17 years on that frame.). The other got switched because the bike got switched from Mineral Oil brakes to DOT brakes, but because of the way brakes are sold as a complete pre-filled system I would have swapped all those lines even if I had kept that bike on mineral oil, cause I would have wanted all the lines as Shimano parts. (And that bike stupidly has internal lines)

So good road bike with high quality brakes it's extremely unlikely you're going to need to mess with those hoses after purchase for many years. If they have to be messed with to get the fit right at purchase get the shop to do it.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by prototoast

My impression is that most people buy a bike complete and never swap any components beyond chains and tires (if that), and upgrading bikes or swapping components is the domain of enthusiasts who derive some enjoyment getting to try new things.

I suspect it is an excessively small sub-niche of customers who both want to be able to upgrade their bikes and want their bikes to remain largely unchanged.

That depends. Switching an entire drivetrain from 10spd to 11spd is not common, but upgrading an existing bike to clipless pedals or deep carbon rims is very common. It is also fairly common to switch from "standard" gearing to "compact" gearing on the same bike. When carbon forks were just becoming popular, swapping from a steel fork to a carbon fork (and at the same time from threaded to threadless headsets/stems) was somewhat common.

[benb]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

That depends. Switching an entire drivetrain from 10spd to 11spd is not common, but upgrading an existing bike to clipless pedals or deep carbon rims is very common. It is also fairly common to switch from "standard" gearing to "compact" gearing on the same bike. When carbon forks were just becoming popular, swapping from a steel fork to a carbon fork (and at the same time from threaded to threadless headsets/stems) was somewhat common.

Sure but these are things that are not made particularly more difficult by any of the new tech.

Swapping wheels on hydraulic disc brakes is only marginally more work than rim brakes. Maybe you need to realign the caliper, no big deal.

And pedals are exactly the same.

I think we see more people do whole group swaps here than normal. Other than dedicated bad weather/high mileage bikes groups can last a really really long time.

[KonaSS]

Originally Posted by thwart

Agreed.

And the last point is where the truthful (IMO) original title of this thread came from. They did indeed win.

First, let's define the industry winning. In this case, I think it is being defined as bike companies developed new bikes and technologies, and sold them to customers for an acceptable profit. So that they can remain in business, continue to innovate and provide innovations and products to customers. In most cases, this is a desirable thing. I don't think this is a bad thing.

Second, this transaction involves two parties. The bike company, and the customer. For the industry to win, a great number of customers have to purchase disc brake bikes. And enough of them have to be happy enough with it to share their experience with their friends, and/or continue to buy disc brake bikes. In other words, we have customers who were happy with their purchase and felt they received fair value. I don't think this is a bad thing.

So the market has spoken - the market being customers and the industry. There is a clear preference for disc brake bikes, and unfortunately in many cases, the preference is so extreme that it is not cost effective to continue offering rim brake bikes for many companies. On a recent Escape Collective podcast, they mentioned that for the last bike that Pinarello produced in both rim and disc brake formats, the disc brake outsold the rim something like 95 to 5%.

The best thing you can do is vote with your dollars. If you are a die hard rim brake fan, support those companies that are still offering what you prefer. I would suggest that the reality is, most folks in this thread complaining are not really ready purchasers who want to buy a new bike/part but can't find what they are looking for, they just want to complain from the sidelines.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

First, let's define the industry winning. In this case, I think it is being defined as bike companies developed new bikes and technologies, and sold them to customers for an acceptable profit. So that they can remain in business, continue to innovate and provide innovations and products to customers. In most cases, this is a desirable thing. I don't think this is a bad thing.

Second, this transaction involves two parties. The bike company, and the customer. For the industry to win, a great number of customers have to purchase disc brake bikes. And enough of them have to be happy enough with it to share their experience with their friends, and/or continue to buy disc brake bikes. In other words, we have customers who were happy with their purchase and felt they received fair value. I don't think this is a bad thing.

So the market has spoken - the market being customers and the industry. There is a clear preference for disc brake bikes, and unfortunately in many cases, the preference is so extreme that it is not cost effective to continue offering rim brake bikes for many companies. On a recent Escape Collective podcast, they mentioned that for the last bike that Pinarello produced in both rim and disc brake formats, the disc brake outsold the rim something like 95 to 5%.

The best thing you can do is vote with your dollars. If you are a die hard rim brake fan, support those companies that are still offering what you prefer. I would suggest that the reality is, most folks in this thread complaining are not really ready purchasers who want to buy a new bike/part but can't find what they are looking for, they just want to complain from the sidelines.

What you are missing here is, when this whole thing started, companies like Specialized came out and stated that they were not going to make rim brake bikes any longer. You go into a bike shop and all you see are disc brake bikes. What are you going to buy? They pushed hard on the pros to get teams and the UCI to go disc, in spite of safety issues with sharp rotors lacerating riders in pile ups, wheel change issues, pad rubbing and so on. If the pros caved, Joe Schmoe that walks into a bike shop thinks disc brakes are better if the pros use them. Marketing was oriented towards pushing disc brakes. Disc brakes weren't really better but they weren't worse either. It's not like EV's where the public is educated enough about the limitations of EV's in spite of car companies saying they were going to only make EV's and the government behind them.

[KonaSS]

Originally Posted by MikeD

What you are missing here is, when this whole thing started, companies like Specialized came out and stated that they were not going to make rim brake bikes any longer. You go into a bike shop and all you see are disc brake bikes. What are you going to buy? They pushed hard on the pros to get teams and the UCI to go disc, in spite of safety issues with sharp rotors lacerating riders in pile ups, wheel change issues, pad rubbing and so on. If the pros caved, Joe Schmoe that walks into a bike shop thinks disc brakes are better if the pros use them. Marketing was oriented towards pushing disc brakes. Disc brakes weren't really better but they weren't worse either. It's not like EV's where the public is educated enough about the limitations of EV's in spite of car companies saying they were going to only make EV's and the government behind them.

Companies like Specialized didn't just start from day 1 saying we are no longer making rim brake bikes. Their sales influenced those decisions. Specialized made the SL6 and rim and disc. They must have gotten feedback from sales of those bikes. Maybe you should have bought a few more Specialized rim brake bikes?

If discs were so terrible, they wouldn't have made it. They did go through some improvement from first gen to where we are now, but that is true with all innovations. And I would argue that they are better for my use case. That is the thing, we all get to make up our own mind on what we like better. There is no one universal truth. However, we can clearly see that more people have preferred discs in the past 5-10 years.

And thanks for bringing up the whole slicing rotors that will cut off legs. That was good for a laugh.

[thwart]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

I would suggest that the reality is, most folks in this thread complaining are not really ready purchasers who want to buy a new bike/part but can't find what they are looking for, they just want to complain from the sidelines.

I was going along with you to some degree until this last (unnecessary) sentence. Just a buncha whiners…

Well, if I’m on the ‘sidelines’ the bike companies put me there.

… and my wife is quite happy about it.

[RoosterCogset]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

Companies like Specialized didn't just start from day 1 saying we are no longer making rim brake bikes. Their sales influenced those decisions. Specialized made the SL6 and rim and disc. They must have gotten feedback from sales of those bikes. Maybe you should have bought a few more Specialized rim brake bikes?

If discs were so terrible, they wouldn't have made it. They did go through some improvement from first gen to where we are now, but that is true with all innovations. And I would argue that they are better for my use case. That is the thing, we all get to make up our own mind on what we like better. There is no one universal truth. However, we can clearly see that more people have preferred discs in the past 5-10 years.

And thanks for bringing up the whole slicing rotors that will cut off legs. That was good for a laugh.

The first step was actually getting the customer base to realize how uncomfortable they were riding around on 25-28mm tires. Once everyone was made to realize how more comfy they could be, then disc brakes became viable.

Sure, there are always new bike riders coming into the market, but at the same time there are also bikes you want to sell as 'upgrades' to existing bike owners. Fact is, another rim brake bike wasn't going to do that.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

Companies like Specialized didn't just start from day 1 saying we are no longer making rim brake bikes. Their sales influenced those decisions. Specialized made the SL6 and rim and disc. They must have gotten feedback from sales of those bikes. Maybe you should have bought a few more Specialized rim brake bikes?

If discs were so terrible, they wouldn't have made it. They did go through some improvement from first gen to where we are now, but that is true with all innovations. And I would argue that they are better for my use case. That is the thing, we all get to make up our own mind on what we like better. There is no one universal truth. However, we can clearly see that more people have preferred discs in the past 5-10 years.

And thanks for bringing up the whole slicing rotors that will cut off legs. That was good for a laugh.

I said they weren't terrible. Are you in denial that sharp (unchamfered) rotors didn't cut riders in crashes? That was documented, not that BS you're spouting about cutting off legs. Go ahead, keep making stuff up.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by RoosterCogset

The first step was actually getting the customer base to realize how uncomfortable they were riding around on 25-28mm tires. Once everyone was made to realize how more comfy they could be, then disc brakes became viable.

Sure, there are always new bike riders coming into the market, but at the same time there are also bikes you want to sell as 'upgrades' to existing bike owners. Fact is, another rim brake bike wasn't going to do that.

Road (racing) bikes aren't supposed to have fat tires, and that's as much an issue of frame clearances as the type of brakes. Buy an endurance or gravel bike if you want to go wider than 30mm tires, which most road bike fit. The pros are running 28 to 30mm tires. Cantilever or V brakes can also handle wider tires than caliper brakes can.

[benb]

Originally Posted by MikeD

I said they weren't terrible. Are you in denial that sharp (unchamfered) rotors didn't cut riders in crashes? That was documented, not that BS you're spouting about cutting off legs. Go ahead, keep making stuff up.

That was always a joke. And it's obvious it was all a sham cause nothing has really significantly changed and none of the Pro riders seem to be concerned about getting cut on discs anymore.

If sharp objects on bikes was really a big issue the UCI would have mandated some kind of guard/cover over the chain rings decades ago.

Same thing with getting rid of all sharp corners/edges on pedals, skewers, TAs, derailluers, etc..

Chainrings and pedals IMO are the big ones that made the whole thing a joke, so many of us have/had cut ourselves on those in races.