What are you thinking, CYCLING RELATED, on tariff subject

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by redir

Uyghurs

Yes I have heard and read all about the “genocide”, “concentration camp” and “forced labor”. Yet I have never been presented with concrete evidence. I remember the same lady interviewed for all the media to broadcast. Same picture of men in same uniform. Yes I am aware how strict it is to film in China, but there are also plenty videos showing how normal XingJian is by YouTubers. Singapore is strict. That doesn’t directly translate to “genocide”.

Flip side we are sanctioning XingJian made products. The whole point of the re-education campaign is to create special economic zone in XingJian because it has a history of domestic terrorism and low income. This again goes back to the Chinese mentality: peace and prosperity. It almost feels too convenient to start smear campaign during the time we are trying to “contain” and slow China’s economic growth. If we care so much about this Chinese minority group, then why are we stifling specifically its economic growth? That makes no sense to me. I am seeing progress being made as companies still invest in the region but it could’ve been way faster.

[mlc]

I feel like this is defo getting close to being political but just not American politics... that said, I'm living in Kyrgyzstan right now and from the perspective of someone living exceedingly close to Xinjiang, from what I've heard it's pretty bad out there. I spent a weekend chatting extensively with a woman who went to college out there right around the time when things started getting bad for the Uyghurs, and while she was exceedingly cagey about specifics, the long and the short of it was that students and faculty were pretty much locked on campus while the rest of the area became quickly and intensely repressed.

Part of what is hard is that things aren't easy for Uyghurs anywhere... I have a Uyghur coworker here who has said he's experienced intense racism in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan, to the point where he was getting verbally abused by teachers in Karakol growing up in K-12 school. It's not a China-specific thing, the Uyghurs are an ethnic minority in a part of the world where being an ethnic minority is not an easy thing. Look at the ethnic enclaves on the Tajik-Kyrygz border, or the Uzbek enclaves, or just how the nomadic peoples were treated in general by the USSR... things get ugly all over.

This is all to say, a lot of horrifying things have happened to the nomadic peoples of Central Asia, and the West has historically remained ignorant to that both in the moment it happens and historically. There are reasons for this, of course, namely that this is a region that is VERY far from the American/Western European spheres of knowledge and influence, but still, I don't think it is at all out of line to say that it feels pretty clear (from what I've read and from just living here) that the Uyghurs are likely suffering pretty intensely under China.

You can say that doesn't change the fact that you align economically with Chinese interests, but putting your head in the sand and refusing to recognize that the Chinese treatment of Uyghurs is abhorrent just feels like conscious blindness to facts. If you've heard and read all about the conditions there, what more evidence do you need? I'm no crazy China hawk myself (indeed I myself am half-Chinese lol) but the willful ignorance regarding the fact that China is absolutely an authoritarian police state is simply disingenuous. I'm down to buy from them in many cases too, but there's no need to pretend that the political climate there is something it's not.

Sorry for the super long off-topic post... mods can let me know if it went a step too far...

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by makoti

It was the will of the people who bothered to vote. If we can't force the rest to participate in Democracy, if we can't entice them to join in, then we get what we deserve.
I saw a reddit post that showed Texas and Oklahoma votes if those votes that didn't happen but could have counted as a candidate. That unknown candidate won both states easily.

Agree, Voting ought to be mandatory.......Or real info, facts about various 'things' in the 'news' and on the inter web...No 'alternative facts' please...But, that's never going to happen.

[54ny77]

Wow, politics aside, what's the riding like in Kyrgyzstan?

Dang, Paceline has global reach indeed! Very cool.

Originally Posted by mlc

I feel like this is defo getting close to being political but just not American politics... that said, I'm living in Kyrgyzstan right now and from the perspective of someone living exceedingly close to Xinjiang, from what I've heard it's pretty bad out there. I spent a weekend chatting extensively with a woman who went to college out there right around the time when things started getting bad for the Uyghurs, and while she was exceedingly cagey about specifics, the long and the short of it was that students and faculty were pretty much locked on campus while the rest of the area became quickly and intensely repressed.

Part of what is hard is that things aren't easy for Uyghurs anywhere... I have a Uyghur coworker here who has said he's experienced intense racism in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan, to the point where he was getting verbally abused by teachers in Karakol growing up in K-12 school. It's not a China-specific thing, the Uyghurs are an ethnic minority in a part of the world where being an ethnic minority is not an easy thing. Look at the ethnic enclaves on the Tajik-Kyrygz border, or the Uzbek enclaves, or just how the nomadic peoples were treated in general by the USSR... things get ugly all over.

This is all to say, a lot of horrifying things have happened to the nomadic peoples of Central Asia, and the West has historically remained ignorant to that both in the moment it happens and historically. There are reasons for this, of course, namely that this is a region that is VERY far from the American/Western European spheres of knowledge and influence, but still, I don't think it is at all out of line to say that it feels pretty clear (from what I've read and from just living here) that the Uyghurs are likely suffering pretty intensely under China.

You can say that doesn't change the fact that you align economically with Chinese interests, but putting your head in the sand and refusing to recognize that the Chinese treatment of Uyghurs is abhorrent just feels like conscious blindness to facts. If you've heard and read all about the conditions there, what more evidence do you need? I'm no crazy China hawk myself (indeed I myself am half-Chinese lol) but the willful ignorance regarding the fact that China is absolutely an authoritarian police state is simply disingenuous. I'm down to buy from them in many cases too, but there's no need to pretend that the political climate there is something it's not.

Sorry for the super long off-topic post... mods can let me know if it went a step too far...

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

Wow, politics aside, what's the riding like in Kyrgyzstan?

Dang, Paceline has global reach indeed! Very cool.

Agree, thanks for sharing!

[mlc]

No bike with me this fall, but will have one in the spring! I’m located in Bishkek which is smoggy and overrun by pretty lawless traffic, so i opted to keep this first semester to foot travel while getting situated and waiting out the winter. Hoping to report back with some good bike content come Match though! and, if all goes well, maybe even a shot at the pamir highway by June

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by mlc

No bike with me this fall, but will have one in the spring! I’m located in Bishkek which is smoggy and overrun by pretty lawless traffic, so i opted to keep this first semester to foot travel while getting situated and waiting out the winter. Hoping to report back with some good bike content come Match though! and, if all goes well, maybe even a shot at the pamir highway by June

It is mandatory, if you want to continue to be allowed to post here on Paceline, to include photos in your posts

[Fat Cat]

I suspect that the tariffs will be welcomed until Joe Maggat realizes that he got bent over. But that's only a small part of an unfortunately large collection of problematic issues that are to come. Stocking up on bicycle spares will likely not be a protection from them.
JMO of course

[deluz]

I thought Kyrgyzstan was all beautiful and rugged mountains.
Seems like a great place to ride assuming the roads go into the mountains and are ridable.

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by mlc

I feel like this is defo getting close to being political but just not American politics... that said, I'm living in Kyrgyzstan right now and from the perspective of someone living exceedingly close to Xinjiang, from what I've heard it's pretty bad out there. I spent a weekend chatting extensively with a woman who went to college out there right around the time when things started getting bad for the Uyghurs, and while she was exceedingly cagey about specifics, the long and the short of it was that students and faculty were pretty much locked on campus while the rest of the area became quickly and intensely repressed.

Part of what is hard is that things aren't easy for Uyghurs anywhere... I have a Uyghur coworker here who has said he's experienced intense racism in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan, to the point where he was getting verbally abused by teachers in Karakol growing up in K-12 school. It's not a China-specific thing, the Uyghurs are an ethnic minority in a part of the world where being an ethnic minority is not an easy thing. Look at the ethnic enclaves on the Tajik-Kyrygz border, or the Uzbek enclaves, or just how the nomadic peoples were treated in general by the USSR... things get ugly all over.

This is all to say, a lot of horrifying things have happened to the nomadic peoples of Central Asia, and the West has historically remained ignorant to that both in the moment it happens and historically. There are reasons for this, of course, namely that this is a region that is VERY far from the American/Western European spheres of knowledge and influence, but still, I don't think it is at all out of line to say that it feels pretty clear (from what I've read and from just living here) that the Uyghurs are likely suffering pretty intensely under China.

You can say that doesn't change the fact that you align economically with Chinese interests, but putting your head in the sand and refusing to recognize that the Chinese treatment of Uyghurs is abhorrent just feels like conscious blindness to facts. If you've heard and read all about the conditions there, what more evidence do you need? I'm no crazy China hawk myself (indeed I myself am half-Chinese lol) but the willful ignorance regarding the fact that China is absolutely an authoritarian police state is simply disingenuous. I'm down to buy from them in many cases too, but there's no need to pretend that the political climate there is something it's not.

Sorry for the super long off-topic post... mods can let me know if it went a step too far...

Very well put. Appreciate the insight closer to XingJiang.

[bthornt]

There is at least one post in this thread that is absolutely in violation of the rules about political posts. Many are close to crossing the line. Is it that hard to just focus on things related to cycling?

[jamesdak]

I'm surprised no one has brought up Shimano imposing their own "Tariff" years ago on parts bought via the European sellers.

Not a real issue for me as long as I could still get my preferred Campagnolo stuff.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I didn't expect anyone on this forum to be hurt by any tariffs because a HUGE percentage of people on this forum are white male, upper middle class or above into the 1%. Been on this forum 20+ years and can refer to all the threads with members showing off their bikes (that just happen to be leaning on uber expensive vehicles), their bike collections, their cars, their motos, their dedicated rooms for their bike habit, their watches, knives, etc. etc.

These types of proposed tariffs nothing but a regressive tax scheme. Tariffs on commodities that go into almost all aspects of our daily living will trickle down to hurt the most those who can least afford it. If you've got a million bucks and a whole room full of bicycles, you don't really care because . . . you have a million bucks! But if you're bringing home $450 gross a week from working at McDonald's to feed your whole family, tariffs on all sorts of food and other daily goods are gonna hurt. A lot.

BBD

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

If you've got a million bucks and a whole room full of bicycles, you don't really care because . . . you have a million bucks! But if you're bringing home $450 gross a week from working at McDonald's to feed your whole family, tariffs on all sorts of food and other daily goods are gonna hurt. A lot.

BBD

You mean like they have already been experiencing the last couple of years, right?

[makoti]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

You mean like they have already been experiencing the last couple of years, right?

So let's make it worse, right?