The 'Un-Official' Campagnolo Ekar thread

[Wakatel_Luum]

Jesus!

That's like trying to fit an octopus in a party dress. No thanks!

[makoti]

I have my gravel bike set up with Ekar. I have Fulcrum Rapid Red wheels. Just upgraded to Shamal Carbons.
The new wheels came with the adapter. https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
This was not on the Fulcrums and they worked great. I pulled off the 13 cassette, and tried to swap it to the new wheels, and it will not work with the adapter. The cassette is way too loose. Take it off, and it fits great.
So I'm confused. I thought the adapter was to allow 13's to fit on pre-N3W hubs, and if that's right, why did they include it? Something free? That's not very Campy.
Am I good with it like I have it (like it was), without the adapter?

[Mark McM]

You have that backwards - the adapter allows 10/11/12spd cassettes to fit on the N3W freehub, not 13spd cassettes to fit on pre-N3W freehubs. In order to fit a 13spd cassette on a pre-N3W wheel you'll have to replace the pre-N3W freehub body on the wheel with an N3W freehub body.

[Mark McM]

nm

[makoti]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

You have that backwards - the adapter allows 10/11/12spd cassettes to fit on the N3W freehub, not 13spd cassettes to fit on pre-N3W freehubs. In order to fit a 13spd cassette on a pre-N3W wheel you'll have to replace the pre-N3W freehub body on the wheel with an N3W freehub body.

Ok. That explains why it fits without the adapter.
Thanks

[Gwerziou]

Aftermarket cassettes for Ekar, 11-36 and 11-42 from TOOT. Oddly linked to a chain and big chainring package at present, as part of "THEJASON", however.

https://performance.tootengineering.com/en/accessori/

[C40_guy]

Can someone confirm that the Ekar 13 cassette lockring takes the same cassette tool as older Campy cassettes?

If not, what's the tool to tighten the cassette lockring?

Thanks!

[belopsky]

Originally Posted by C40_guy

Can someone confirm that the Ekar 13 cassette lockring takes the same cassette tool as older Campy cassettes?

If not, what's the tool to tighten the cassette lockring?

Thanks!

Yes, same version in my experience, same being I use the Stein tool https://steintool.com/portfolio-item...racket-driver/

[C40_guy]

Originally Posted by belopsky

Yes, same version in my experience, same being I use the Stein tool https://steintool.com/portfolio-item...racket-driver/

Thank you!

[SonicBoom]

In case anyone is a match, I have a classifieds listing here to see if anyone would like to swap their 165mm crankarm / crankset for a new 170mm with 40T one.

[SonicBoom]

Finally a sunny day and I was able to test out the the new bike (Giant Revolt Advanced Pro) after the shop adjustment of the shifting.

I thought the shifting was pretty bad, and I had feelings of anger at the world again. It took me some time but I realized that if I held the shift up for about a second, I would get the right upshift each time.

Is that normal on Ekar? I assume not, but what could be causing that? My first thought was the bscrew gap might be too large but I reset it now and feel it's at the minimum (at 3MM or slightly ness) where I can still shift smoothly. If I reduce the gap, I can't go up to the highest gear anymore - using Campagnolo's advice to measure 3mm or less at the penultimate sprocket.

I haven't tried this hold/shift when shifting multiple cogs up yet to see if I can learn how to do that consistently.

Otherwise, the placement of the chain within the cogs feels a bit off (certain placements are quite nosy), so I could reindex later.

From gfk_velo's notes, this is where I am:

Hangars: LBS straightened the hangar before they did their work.

Hangar torque: My thru axles (lightweight J&L after market) ask for 9NM, so I torqued to that

BScrew: as noted above, I have it to (I believe) the minimum without the pulley wheel preventing the next shift up. I can always try to squeeze the gap a bit more.

Cable Prep: the LBS went with Jagwire tandem pre stretched cable - they left a bit more cable on the derailleur than I did so they didn't use the stock shifter shifting cable. One thought is to order a new Ekar cable kit for $80 or the Jagwire Elite Ultra Slick for Campagnolo for $30. Of course I want to save money, should I just shut up and buy official?

If I do buy new inner cable, my thought is to go try a different LBS, print out the summary below, and have them check all these things.

Otherwise, I assume the LBS knows how to prep cable / housing properly. I originally used full cable housing on my setup, they went with stop housing (is that the right term, but it should be bare wire inside the frame)

Metal Ferrules - I know there's one going into the rear derailleur, but haven't checked closely for other spots.

Cassette: I believe it's at 40NM. I had it tighter before but asked the shop to loosen it and retighten to official spec.

Originally Posted by gfk_velo

Quick summary post on some of the things I've read over the last few weeks on this thread ...

Hangers - new hangers themselves can be straight as a die (if they are CNC'd, they will be) but the bed that they fit against may not be, so they may still need slight "adjustment" post-fitting. Not uncommon, I'm sorry to say - but given the inaccuracy in press-fit BB shells and in DB mounts, also no great surprise.

Hangers retained on the end of the through axle may shift slightly according to the torque on the through axle - it won't be a lot but it can throw fine index adjustment "off" and adjustment on 13s is quite fine ... I'd recommend using a torque wrench to set the through-axle tightness. This can also help with consistent disc brake caliper positioning. On races a fair few of us use a 10nm preset electric screwdriver for through axle wheel changes now, or something like the small PrestaCycle beam type torque wrench (more practical out on the trail, for sure).

As a general rule (and it's in the spec), if you have a +/-2T difference in the chainring size from the size used when assembling the bike, you shouldn't need to change chain length in most cases.
I say "in most cases" because this is a function of the exact geo of the frame and therefore, the exact point that you join the chain at - there is a possible variation of just under 1" / 25mm in where the chain gets joined, because when determining the "not through the derailleur" length, a frame might not allow a male / female join by a fraction of an inch / mm so you have to add a full link to find the "first place the chain can be joined" - or it might be that the "first place the chain can be joined" allows a fraction of an inch or a couple of mm of "slack".
The B-screw will always require tweaking to accommodate a change in chainring size, or, by the same token, a change in cassette range where the 4 teeth total is also accommodated in the case of 9-44 vs 10-42.

B screw setting is sensitive in Ekar. 9-42 and 10-44 more so than 9-36. The best way I have found to do it on a fair few (100-ish) Ekar set-ups is to use the "rule" in the manual as a start point but then to ease the top jockey "in" so that it runs as close as possible to the cluster without the derailleur cage physically "blocking" against an adjacent sprocket on shifting.

Careful cable prep pays dividends!
When cutting the outer, be a little more generous than you would be with 11 or 12s, perhaps, without going overboard - you don't want to lassoo passers-by but neither do you want to introduce super-tight bends that the inner cable will bind on. Angling the shift / brake levers inwards (unless you take the "rear of bar" route) can cause problems with this, depending on the exact shape of the bar.
Cut the cable ends dead square and file or grind them flat, then be sure to open the nylon liner out into a "bell" - if you don't have the specific tool to do this, you can use an old cable, run it through, pull it to one side at the exit and spin it through 360 degrees around the cable end so that it pushes the liner evenly sideways against the wire of the cable housing to "bell" the nylon liner.
Use the Maximum Smoothness inner. It is not only, as the name suggests, physically smoother than the standard inner but the teflon impregnation and the higher number of finer wire strands means that it is slightly more flexible than the UltraShift inner cable - it moves better in the outer, wears the nylon liner less and gives more consistent shifting. I now use MS inners on all of our Campagnolo builds - yes, it's considerably more expensive but the increased service life of the outers, distributed over that service life, makes it at least as cost-effective as the standard inner and it copes better with complex routes.

Use the "tailed" metal ferrules - the plastic ones that many third parties supply tend to compress and bend about - not ideal in any gearing system but a general no-no with Campagnolo. The "tails" do help at the RD and where there is bare cable, at the exit from the front section and the entry to the rear section.

Not so common these days but worth a mention - be careful around cable guides on externally-routed cables. A plastic guide on the BB shell needs to fit tight to the profile of the BB shell, with no "gap" between the guide and the shell - it also needs to be held firm, with no possibility for it to twist and to be in good condition - nylon guides, especially off road or in poor winter conditions do eventually "keyhole" and as the cable cuts into the guide, the guide grips it, increasing friction significantly enough to affect shifting. Beware the exit of the cable from the guide - sometimes it runs across & rubs on the bottom of the BB end of the chainstay and so extra friction is added there.

Make sure that there are no kinks introduced into the inner cable that then get "hidden" in the outer - so when threading the cable at the shifter, it's advisable to guide the tip of the cable immediately through the guide on the lever, without letting it form a tight loop there, that can result in a kink - I use a small, flat screwdriver to hold the cable down into the guide as I push it through. If you *have* to form a loop - do it in the first 50mm or so of cable which on most frames, won't be included in the tensioned part of the cable at all.
Any kink in the tensioned section is bad news as a fraction of the first index movement of the lever will be used in straightening that kink out, plus, in a full-outer situation it'll cause extra friction - and friction is your enemy.

I've typed it, it seems in the last however many years, a million times - but cassette lockring torque matters! In Ekar (and actually, in 12s too) this is more important because of the construction of the cassette. In Ekar, the spacer in the rear section of 9 or 10 sprockets rattles when the cassette isn't torqued down - when the torque is sufficient, the 9/10 sprocket section compresses width-wise onto that spacer, so setting the exact inter-sprocket distances. Too loose and you won't get the compression (and the sprockets tend to creak), too much and the ends of the spacer can deform (although you have to go well beyond the maximum recommended torques for that to happen).

If you take the cassette apart to remove / clean the spacer (Campagnolo don't recommend it, but ...) make sure to note the orientation of the spider at the back of the cassette relative to the cassette itself. You will see that there is a drilling at the base of one of the teeth on the last sprocket. The stepped tooth in the spider's cassette body splines goes at 90 degrees to that drilled hole. It'll only work one way. This guarantees the orientation of the top cluster relative to the bottom and keeps the shift sweet across the junction. If you take the spider off, reassemble with Loctite 222 or 248 on the screws and torque to 10 nm.

Hope that helps.

[vespasianus]

Originally Posted by SonicBoom

Finally a sunny day and I was able to test out the the new bike (Giant Revolt Advanced Pro) after the shop adjustment of the shifting.

I thought the shifting was pretty bad, and I had feelings of anger at the world again. [B]It took me some time but I realized that if I held the shift up for about a second, I would get the right upshift each time.
.

So, when you say upshift, you are saying going down to the small cogs? That should be instantaneous the minute you hit the thumb lever. Only one shift can ever happen.

If you are going up the cassette (larger cogs), it is easy at first to shift two or three cogs. Once you get the feel down, shifting to what you want becomes second nature. But again you should not have to "hold" the shift.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by SonicBoom

I thought the shifting was pretty bad, and I had feelings of anger at the world again. [B]It took me some time but I realized that if I held the shift up for about a second, I would get the right upshift each time.

Do you mean holding the shifting paddle (behind the brake lever) until the chain moves to the next larger sprocket? If so, this is a classic symptom of the cable indexing tension being too low. Try turning the cable indexing adjusting barrel outward a little (turn it counter-clockwise, half a turn or maybe more).

Campagnolo mechanical shift levers actually have a little over-travel built into the mechanism, so the derailleur actually moves a little too far when the paddle is pressed while shifting to a larger sprockets, and when the paddle is released the derailleur moves back to be centered under the sprocket. If the cable indexing tension is a little low (such that the derailleur under-shifts when moving to larger sprockets), holding the lever may keep the derailleur far enough over to allow the shift to happen.

It is possible that the shop didn't get the cable indexing tension quite right when the set it up, but a more likely possibility is that the cable indexing tension was set up properly initially, but the tension loosened as the new cable and housings got settled in with use.

[C40_guy]

As I'm finishing my first Ekar build, I'm finding this thread incredibly valuable. Thank you to all of those contributing such useful information!

Most of my Campy experience, ranging from original Nuovo Record and friction downtube shifters to most recently (!) Record Compact 10, is only peripherally relevant! (Yea, I've been stuck on 10 speeds for a *long* time now...just starting to build a couple of new bikes and upgrade others with Record 12)

[nalax]

Originally Posted by SonicBoom

Metal Ferrules - I know there's one going into the rear derailleur, but haven't checked closely for other spots.

Campy specs a plastic ferrule for the rear derailleur.