The 'Un-Official' Campagnolo Ekar thread

[SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by vespasianus

The hydraulic hose? Most of the brake systems are Magura - for my H11 system I have used regular Magura hoses without issue. Much cheaper. Same for their olive and barbs.

Could I use this?

The bike shop would move the current rear hose and recut it for the front. Other than a new olive/barb, do I have to get them anything else?

[Old School]

Or more correctly, what is the most appropriate frame for a Campagnolo Fanboi, who wants to have a bike with Ekar?

I WOULD consider 3T perhaps "most appropriate", but the reviews of stiffness show it is not the best for me. we are talking REAL gravel, and MTB trails. not "groad".

Of course in my mind, Italian. Steel? Not sure. The modernity of "13 speed" leans towards aluminum or (gasp) carbon.

Any suggestions?

[Blue Jays]

Originally Posted by Old School

"…What is the most appropriate frame for a Campagnolo Fanboi, who wants to have a bike with Ekar?…"

One would think contemporary professional framebuilders can accommodate frames intended for Campagnolo Ekar if they know that upfront?

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by vespasianus

The hydraulic hose? Most of the brake systems are Magura - for my H11 system I have used regular Magura hoses without issue. Much cheaper. Same for their olive and barbs.

I was given to understand that while Magura hydraulic hoses are quite similar, the Campagnolo hoses had thinner banjo fittings, and that the thicker Magura Banjos would cause fit issues. Have you experienced any issue with the Magura banjos?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Blue Jays

One would think contemporary professional framebuilders can accommodate frames intended for Campagnolo Ekar if they know that upfront?

Interesting. Didn't consider that.

or "off the rack" from Italy.

[gfk_velo]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Well, it certainly invalidates the warranty. But are there any such mods like this that gfk_velo would recommend? I modified 1st generation 11spd Record shifters by swapping the original carbon shift lever and brake blade with silver polished lever & blade from Athena shifters, and am operating Athena front and rear derailleurs with them - they're working great, but I doubt that gfk_velo would approve of this, either. Or the 9spd ErgoPower shifters that I converted to 10spd, which have been working fine for more than a decade. And probably not my next project to swap the guts of an Athena left triple shifter into a Potenza disc brake lever, either.

Well, the reason that the bars were put into the lever, was that in testing, multiple upshifts under torque caused some really unpleasant things to happen to the RD and the chain. Downshifting, it didn't cause the same issues.

You can do it if you like - we take the bar out & reinsert it all the time when deep-cleaning, repairing or occasionally in testing these levers ... but if your RD ends up failing because you've opted to modify the design for multiple upshift, by changing an element of the design, please don't ring the "my Campag RD just broke / my 13s chain broke and all I was doing was shifting" bell ... the design is the way it is, precisely *because* of those issues being encountered.

All the other mods you mention are within spec. and don't physically change a mission-critical part of the component - Athena, for instance, along with every other ErgoPower lever since the 1993 was offered at various points with both alloy and composite shift levers and more latterly, brake levers - swapping them is a service we offer and there's no issue with it.

Provided the correct parts are used, no problem with flipping 8s to 9s to 10s and back again in Ergolevers, either.

Triple internal into a Potenza LH ditto - all the parts fit, the differences are very small - many of the parts are actually common between Potenza double and Athena triple levers (albeit the lever shell itself is different) ... all of the other parts of the lever that triple shifting will have an effect on, are the same, so there's no issue with doing it, provided warranty is of no importance to you.

For information - the reason that Campagnolo (& therefore I) don't recommend some practices are covered primarily by the following:

1. Testing is done across a range of circumstances and will often turn up adverse effects that third parties might not have considered - explaining "why" x, y or z should not be done can be long-winded and *can* reveal bits of IP that the company might not care to expose.

2. We have no idea of the technical competence of the people doing the modification. Example - yes, under certain circumstances and with some frame geometries, a 32T sprocket can be made to work with RDs designed for 29T max ... however, where it is done, the RD needs particularly careful adjustment and in some cases, a new cage needs to be fitted in others, it doesn't - and that call is down to the mechanic doing the job with all the parts in front of them. Do you want to be the person writing the "how to" for that, for an average consumer - because guess where the liability lays, if it all goes wrong?

3. There are several procedures that can be done, technically - but they come with a long string of (sometimes complicated) caveats - again, giving all the exceptions and technical warnings is realistically too complex for any manufacturer to confront.
To use the example above, I could give all of the things that have to be right on a frame for such a mod to work and work as consistently as an out-of-the-box spec assembly - but the person doing the job would need to measure the true centre BB to centre wheel drop (often not exactly what the generic frame geo is on the frame-maker's website), accurately measure the position of the "hook" on the RD hanger, accurately measure the offset angle and length of the hanger, the length of the chainstay along the chainline and then decide whether to remove the cage from the RD and advance / retard the spring that sets the torque load around the lower pivot and / or to change to a longer case for chain wrap purposes. If we were to give all of that spec, then we could say "OK, doing this mod if all these factors are satisfied is fine" but realistically, we'd know that a good many mechanics would have neither the time nor inclination to do that - in some cases, not the tools, either - and if it went awry - it'd be the brand that would take the hit.

4. On a personal level, most mechanics, me included, will do things that we are comfortable doing, that fall outside of manufacturer recommendations. On our own bikes, absolutely not an issue - if I end up staring at the underside of a No84 bus because of something I've done on my own bike - that's my problem. The greater problem is when a final customer ends up staring at the underside of a No84 bus - because, when as a mechanic you are sued, "I thought it would be OK" doesn't cut it in court (I know, I have been called as an expert witness, multiple times) - and so, by extension, it would be a very brave or very dumb mechanic that advised or condoned acting outside of a manufacturer's spec on a public forum, where anyone can read and act on what they say ...

[martl]

Originally Posted by SonicBoom

Could I use this?

The bike shop would move the current rear hose and recut it for the front. Other than a new olive/barb, do I have to get them anything else?

I replaced the original EKAR brake hose with a Magura one. They are similar but not identical. The end that goes into the brake levers (pic) is a bit larger on the Magura hose. I managed to wrestle it in, but it was a close call and i expected something to give all through the process. it is not for the faint of heart.





Original Campagnolo EKAR:



Magura:

[SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by martl

I replaced the original EKAR brake hose with a Magura one. They are similar but not identical. The end that goes into the brake levers (pic) is a bit larger on the Magura hose. I managed to wrestle it in, but it was a close call and i expected something to give all through the process. it is not for the faint of heart.

The brake end is the banjo correct? It sounds like I should not ask the LBS to reuse my existing Ekar banjo with a new Magura hose/needle/olive?

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by SonicBoom

The brake end is the banjo correct? It sounds like I should not ask the LBS to reuse my existing Ekar banjo with a new Magura hose/needle/olive?

On the Campagnolo disc brakes (including Ekar), the banjo is inside the brake lever, and the olive and barb are at the caliper. If the hose is in good shape, there's no reason that a rear hose couldn't be used on the front, with a new olive and barb.

Hydraulically, there's no reason not to put the banjo in the lever, but it does create a pain-in-the-butt when the hose is routed internal to both the frame and the handlebar. Normally, internally routed brake house is run into the frame by the caliper mounts and then out through the head tube. then when the handlebar is fitted, the hoses are run into the handlebar and out by the levers. But the non-removeable banjo on Campagnolo hoses won't fit through the routing holes on most handlebars, or the routing holes by the calipers. So the hoses have to first be routed through the handlebar, and then into the head tube out out of the frame/fork by the calipers - backwards of they way the frame designers originally intended. The pain is that the hoses are must be run through the frame while the handlebar is dangling by the hoses, and likely the electric shift wires also have to run while the handlebar is dangling by the hoses/wires. And if you are using mechanic shifting, now you've got a pair of cables & housings dangling between the frame and handlebar before you can finally install the stem and handlebars to the steerer. Doable, but a real pain.

[SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

On the Campagnolo disc brakes (including Ekar), the banjo is inside the brake lever, and the olive and barb are at the caliper. If the hose is in good shape, there's no reason that a rear hose couldn't be used on the front, with a new olive and barb.

Hydraulically, there's no reason not to put the banjo in the lever, but it does create a pain-in-the-butt when the hose is routed internal to both the frame and the handlebar. Normally, internally routed brake house is run into the frame by the caliper mounts and then out through the head tube. then when the handlebar is fitted, the hoses are run into the handlebar and out by the levers. But the non-removeable banjo on Campagnolo hoses won't fit through the routing holes on most handlebars, or the routing holes by the calipers. So the hoses have to first be routed through the handlebar, and then into the head tube out out of the frame/fork by the calipers - backwards of they way the frame designers originally intended. The pain is that the hoses are must be run through the frame while the handlebar is dangling by the hoses, and likely the electric shift wires also have to run while the handlebar is dangling by the hoses/wires. And if you are using mechanic shifting, now you've got a pair of cables & housings dangling between the frame and handlebar before you can finally install the stem and handlebars to the steerer. Doable, but a real pain.

Ah, since the banjo is not removable, I would indeed need a Campag hose or have the LBS go through the ordeal martl mentioned. The hose, including banjo, are all one piece, essentially.

[MXLeader]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

… But the non-removeable banjo on Campagnolo hoses won't fit through the routing holes on most handlebars, or the routing holes by the calipers. So the hoses have to first be routed through the handlebar, and then into the head tube out out of the frame/fork by the calipers - backwards of they way the frame designers originally intended. The pain is that the hoses are must be run through the frame while the handlebar is dangling by the hoses, and likely the electric shift wires also have to run while the handlebar is dangling by the hoses/wires. And if you are using mechanic shifting, now you've got a pair of cables & housings dangling between the frame and handlebar before you can finally install the stem and handlebars to the steerer. Doable, but a real pain.

So very true! It was exasperating to internally run the Ekar single shift cable and hydraulic cables through my Coefficient handlebars and then my Pursuit all road frame when I first built it up. I stepped away from the build several times over 3 days to regroup and breathe deeply. Eventually it worked out and the build/shifting/braking have been flawless.

I would not attempt running Campy hydraulic hoses through Coeefficient bars and an internally routed stem, ever (is it even possible?) . I’ll leave that to the professionals no matter how much it cost.

[C40_guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

Or more correctly, what is the most appropriate frame for a Campagnolo Fanboi, who wants to have a bike with Ekar?

...
Of course in my mind, Italian...

Colnago G3-X. D'uh.

[cgolvin]

Originally Posted by C40_guy

Colnago G3-X. D'uh.

Or, if you prefer metal and custom fit to you by a master, Bixxis Fronda.

[martl]

Originally Posted by SonicBoom

The brake end is the banjo correct? It sounds like I should not ask the LBS to reuse my existing Ekar banjo with a new Magura hose/needle/olive?

Iirc it is slightly thicker as well. I dont think many bike shops would agree to do that for liability issues, it really is a nasty hack. This is the sort of operation one might do on someones own bike; i wouldnt feel comfortable doing it onsomeone elses.

[martl]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

On the Campagnolo disc brakes (including Ekar), the banjo is inside the brake lever, and the olive and barb are at the caliper. If the hose is in good shape, there's no reason that a rear hose couldn't be used on the front, with a new olive and barb.

Hydraulically, there's no reason not to put the banjo in the lever, but it does create a pain-in-the-butt when the hose is routed internal to both the frame and the handlebar. Normally, internally routed brake house is run into the frame by the caliper mounts and then out through the head tube. then when the handlebar is fitted, the hoses are run into the handlebar and out by the levers. But the non-removeable banjo on Campagnolo hoses won't fit through the routing holes on most handlebars, or the routing holes by the calipers. So the hoses have to first be routed through the handlebar, and then into the head tube out out of the frame/fork by the calipers - backwards of they way the frame designers originally intended. The pain is that the hoses are must be run through the frame while the handlebar is dangling by the hoses, and likely the electric shift wires also have to run while the handlebar is dangling by the hoses/wires. And if you are using mechanic shifting, now you've got a pair of cables & housings dangling between the frame and handlebar before you can finally install the stem and handlebars to the steerer. Doable, but a real pain.

True. I did it on a fully internal routed bike and it was a major pain. Especially since Ekar is mechanical shifting. One would need about six hands really to juggle a frame that wants to tip, a fork and bearing rings that want to drop out, the stem, the bar, the upper bearing cup and two pieces of spacer with very stubborn hoses going through them, while threading the front brake hose through that needle hole in the fork shaft etc etc...

instead of building from the frame up, you build from the handlebar and stem, took me a bit to wrap my head around that
also, it is of essence to cut the steering tube *before* inserting the cables, other than shown in the pic below- or you do it twice. (This is when i messed up the original hose and had to look for a new one). Something i hate to do because of handlebar height, i like to confirm the height on the assembled bike before cuttng.
If i had to do it again, i'd go for a semi integrated frameset.