OT: Ray, how's your Bitcoin investment going?

[Mr. Pink]

He contributed millions to campaigns for politicians on both sides. The current President was a big recipient. There are many other lawmakers who also benefitted. Some think millions were laundered through Ukraine. Holmes, well, Holmes. Here, I'll just paste the wiki: "In July 2011 Holmes was introduced to former U.S. Secretary of State George Shultz, who joined the Theranos board of directors that month.[129] Over the next three years, Shultz helped to introduce almost all the outside directors on the "all-star board", which included William Perry (former U.S. Secretary of Defense), Henry Kissinger (former U.S. Secretary of State), Sam Nunn (former U.S. Senator), Bill Frist (former U.S. Senator, senate majority leader and heart-transplant surgeon), Gary Roughead (Admiral, USN, retired), Jim Mattis (General, USMC), Richard Kovacevich (former Wells Fargo Chairman and CEO) and Riley P. Bechtel (chairman of the board and former CEO at Bechtel Group).[129][130][131] The board was criticized for consisting "mainly of directors with diplomatic or military backgrounds".[11]"

Rotten to the core. Powerful people hate taxes and tax records, but, they love money.

[Tony T]

The Hulu miniseries on Holmes ("The Dropout") was very good.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by verticaldoug

Interesting then what did he do?

Just so we're on the same page; are you referring to SBF's money or investors?

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd

Just so we're on the same page; are you referring to SBF's money or investors?

People don’t see it that? So how do they see it?

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by verticaldoug

People don’t see it that? So how do they see it?

Ha. You're confusing me now. The initial comment I responded to made it sound as though you were saying that SBF lost 8B of SBF's dollars.

And my comment was that SBF may have been a billionaire on paper based on the FTX share price, but that wealth wasn't real.

If your comment was positing that he misappropriated $8B of customer deposits then I think "lost" was not the appropriate word.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd

Ha. You're confusing me now. The initial comment I responded to made it sound as though you were saying that SBF lost 8B of SBF's dollars.

And my comment was that SBF may have been a billionaire on paper based on the FTX share price, but that wealth wasn't real.

If your comment was positing that he misappropriated $8B of customer deposits then I think "lost" was not the appropriate word.

On the question of whether or not SBF could have ever turned his paper net worth into dollars that anywhere near what was being thrown around, I think it's unlikely. It does seem as though a large portion of that value was based on a liquid digital assets.

On the question of whether or not he lost that much customer money, I think that's a little uncertain. He definitely lost it in stead that he couldn't account for it, but the latest I've read is that it's an open question how much customers will be made whole by the time the bankruptcy proceedings are through. It seems as though some of the money that was not accounted for at the time has since been recovered.

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd

Ha. You're confusing me now. The initial comment I responded to made it sound as though you were saying that SBF lost 8B of SBF's dollars.

And my comment was that SBF may have been a billionaire on paper based on the FTX share price, but that wealth wasn't real.

If your comment was positing that he misappropriated $8B of customer deposits then I think "lost" was not the appropriate word.

Got it. We agree he stole the funds from customers , and he invested the stolen money unwisely. The issue is SBF had too many hats. FTX.US entity to handle US accounts, FTX Bahamas exchange, FTX Trading (another Bahama Corp) and Alameda the hedge fund. The lending between FTX Trading and Alameda isn't the problem, he generated the problem lower down his structure when he incurred the obligation for segregated client funds at one or both of the exchanges. When I look at these structures, I am confident saying he was naive and stupid. He really didn't know what he was doing which considering the amount of money he raised from VC is a testament to how many of them really don't know what they are doing.

On a side note on bitcoin craziness, I point you to the Mt. Gox bankruptcy and proposed settlement. In 2014, Mt Gox 'exchange' was handling about 70% of the world's bitcoin transactions. Depending on which story you want to believe, 850,000 bitcoins were stolen. The exchange collapse, people were sued, but the original crime is less interesting then what happened afterwards.

Mt. Gox later found 200,000 coins in a dormant wallet, so the creditors/shareholders and depositers then laid claim for the 200,000 coins.

At the time, bitcoin was around 400 dollars, so the dollar value of the lost at the time was $340,000,000/ (850,000x400). Fortunately, the settlement and bankruptcy had taken so long, and bitcoin at the time had risen to 30,000, the remaining 200,000 coins where now worth $6,000,000,000. So some of the bigger funds involved and the lawyers for the company tried to hatch the idea the proceedings only needed to pay the financial value at the time of the original crime since Japan did not recognize bitcoin as an asset or currency. They'd pay 340,000,000 to make people 'whole' and pocket the remaining $5,660,000,000. There was a brand name investment fund behind this maneuver.

Eventually the Tokyo courts ruled against the insiders trying to steal the bulk of the settlement, and as of Sept 2023, 9 years after the fact, the administrator is preparing to start distributing the coins.

https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/202309...ent_en.pdfeven with the additional loss of coins which were sold for paying lawyers and other creditors along the way, the final payments are north of $10b

All pretty funny in a den of thieves.

Now with bitcoin at 60,000, my figures are slightly off and the dates are approximate, but the gist of the story is accurate. Go to work with google. chatGPT may even give a good recap.

[Louis]

I just read something interesting at the BBC web site (see link below):

"Satoshi Nakamoto," s/he of "mysterious and unknown Bitcoin inventor" fame, still owns ~1.1 million bitcoin. And we don't even know if he's still alive, assuming he ever existed in the first place. Talk about a kooky business.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-68434579

[redir]

Just hit ATH above $69K today. And then of course the whales dumped. Pretty incredible run that took most by surprise.

[cash05458]

yeah, looks like a pretty smart move...way to go Ray and btw thank you for the great bar tape... Have fun guys while ridiculing him?

[Louis]

Originally Posted by cash05458

yeah, looks like a pretty smart move...way to go Ray and btw thank you for the great bar tape... Have fun guys while ridiculing him?

How much did you invest, back in 2013?

[cash05458]

Originally Posted by Louis

How much did you invest, back in 2013?

I didn't...but then again I didnt dive on on this thread ridiculing him actually...I do talk to him via email these days and for a long time and he is doing pretty well via his investments it seems...

[Louis]

Originally Posted by cash05458

I didn't...

Nor did I, but I can live with myself - over the years the S&P 500 Index has been good enough for me. I wouldn't be able to handle the volatility of something like BTC.

[cash05458]

Originally Posted by Louis

Nor did I, but I can live with myself - over the years the S&P 500 Index has been good enough for me. I wouldn't be able to handle the volatility of something like BTC.

that's great Louis...well done...but I dont see an entire thread about what a bad call you made...sorry but this whole thing based on Ray seems pretty mean at times...certainly for this place where it is we hould all be kind and good, right...carry on tho I guess...

[redir]

If Ray bought in 2013 and still holds then Ray is a happy guy. It's all about holding on for the ride. As cyclists we know that risk is something we do every day when we commute to work by bike. You should probably choose not to commute if there is an ice storm in the forecast but if the last couple days have been nice then off you go.

Interestingly, BTC is very volatile, but when you zoom out it really does follow the S and P and the markets in general. It will probably be even more so now that there are BTC EFT's.