The fall of Kona Bikes :(

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Kent has announced that it is looking for a buyer for the Kona brand:

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/indu...yer-kona-bikes

I heard a rumor Jeff Bezoz was interested.

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Kent has announced that it is looking for a buyer for the Kona brand:

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/indu...yer-kona-bikes

This move was obvious as soon as Kent shared the news about their exciting new CFO.

[reuben]

I've seen this movie in person. The smartest guys in the room buy a perfectly good company and promptly proceed to destroy it. And it's not always private equity loading them up with debt.

In my personal experience the future was writ large almost immediately. I abandoned ship when it started to list to port. There was no sense in waiting around to witness the actual sinking.

[RWL2222]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Kent has announced that it is looking for a buyer for the Kona brand.

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/indu...yer-kona-bikes

ChatGPT, generate me a press release to build our brand image while we pivot to something else. Do your best with the most grandiose and vaporous language you can think of:

“Within the Kent Outdoors family of brands, we pride ourselves on a robust legacy characterized by resilience and an unwavering ability to overcome hurdles, consistently emerging stronger in the face of adversity," said C.J. Vlahovich, who leads Kent's Watersports division. "While the path to improvement has been demanding, our devoted team remains steadfast in our conviction that Kent Outdoors is destined to continue as the foremost innovator in cultivating vibrant brands that elevate outdoor enjoyment for all."

[krooj]

Originally Posted by prototoast

I don't can't possibly imagine what $6-9k modern bike you consider to be "equivalent" to a CAAD 9 with 105. You can get a CAAD Optimo rim brake bike with 11 speed 105 for $1625 MSRP. You can get a CAAD 13 disc brake with 11 speed 105 for $2325 MSRP. You can even get a Supersix Evo with disc brake 11 speed 105 for $3,225.

If you're looking at a Supersix Evo Hi-Mod Disc with 12 speed Ultegra Di2 and carbon wheels (MSRP $8,050) and thinking that's somehow the equivalent of a CAAD 9, then your sense of equivalence is not based on product attributes, engineering costs, or production costs.

Maybe my stated ranges are too high, but my point here was that, in 2006 a CAAD9 with 105 was the sweet spot for what a serious enthusiast would consider to be an acceptable state-of-the-art road bike, and those were not extremely expensive bikes. Today, you'd be looking at an SL8, Aethos, or maybe Allez, which start around $4k. So we're in a situation where these bikes' pricing has far outpaced inflation, everything is made in the far east, so labour costs are significantly reduced - you'd expect greater margins to come out of all that.

We're seeing a correction of sorts - just browse Trek's website - but I don't think we're anywhere near bottom.

All of this is different from the whole Kona situation, which just sounds like scummy VC and even worse management. I always pegged Kona as a roach of the cycling industry - un-killable.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by krooj

Maybe my stated ranges are too high, but my point here was that, in 2006 a CAAD9 with 105 was the sweet spot for what a serious enthusiast would consider to be an acceptable state-of-the-art road bike, and those were not extremely expensive bikes. Today, you'd be looking at an SL8, Aethos, or maybe Allez, which start around $4k. So we're in a situation where these bikes' pricing has far outpaced inflation, everything is made in the far east, so labour costs are significantly reduced - you'd expect greater margins to come out of all that.

I'm not sure that your comparison is valid. A CAAD 9 with 105 would not have been considered a "state-of-the-art" bike, even in 2006. It has an aluminum frame and the lowest "enthusiast level" group set, so it would be more likely be considered an entry-level race bike. The closest modern comparison would probably be the Cannondale CAAD 13 Disc 105, which is the direct descendant of the CAAD9. You reported earlier that the CAAD9 with 105 was about $1500 in 2006. According to this inflation calculator, this would be $2334 in today's dollars. This almost exactly the same as the $2325 price tag on the CAAD 13 disc 105.

[vertr]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

This almost exactly the same as the $2325 price tag on the CAAD 13 disc 105.

Right, every time I see someone do the actual math the pricing changes are bang-on for inflation aside from the absolute top of the market.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by vertr

Right, every time I see someone do the actual math the pricing changes are bang-on for inflation aside from the absolute top of the market.

Yup. Aside from a few covid blips, the real cost of bikes has been stable or coming down.

The issue is that there has been a lot of advancement at the top so people who want to ride the same bikes the pros are riding have to pay a lot more. This can create social pressures where people buying bikes based on some perceived status feel they have to spend more money to maintain the same perceived status level of their bike.

This is a real phenomenon, particularly in a competitive environment like racing, but it's a very different phenomenon than "inflation."

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Yup. Aside from a few covid blips, the real cost of bikes has been stable or coming down.

While getting a much better machine, at the same time.

CAAD 9 was great, but, the new bike will have more tire clearance, probably ride nicer, disc brakes, 11/12-speed and better gear ranges, and so on.

[litcrazy]

I do think folks want to present inflation as the same item for the same price.

No one is asking what the price of an iPhone 10 is right now. They compare the newest iPhone in 2024 to the newest iPhone in 2014. They don’t say inflation doesn’t apply because it has a bigger screen, faster processor and additional cameras. Likewise when considering the cost of automobiles, I don’t see the same consideration of trying to adjust inflation consideration to subtract technological advances.

This apples to apples comparison strategy seems to lose track of why road cycling is perceived as less and less accessible. I think that comparing an aluminum bike from 2006 to a carbon bike in 2024 isn’t particularly unreasonable when you look at market share.

I fear this kind of thinking will create blindspots in the industry that will just make road cycling more and more out of touch from most people in the same way skiing has gone. With the continuing trickle done effect that more and more people will view bikes on roads as at best a nuisance and at worst trespassers.

[bicycletricycle]

I think this is a little more complicated than you present. Most People don’t really understand the technical specifications of things. They don’t choose 105 because of the materials and ratings of the bearings or alloys used or whatever. Most of the time they do t really think they are choosing 105, they are choosing a cannondale r2000 or whatever, they probably have some idea of how close this is from the top or bottom and have tried to choose something that will work and seems to align with their sense of who they are in society.

So it may be true that an aluminum cannondale with 105 is the same price from 2006 to now. But if you add a bunch of price points on top of it it gets pushed farther down making it appear lower end.

Like how the relaunch of super record makes record less high end and to many people kind of worse.

Originally Posted by prototoast

Yup. Aside from a few covid blips, the real cost of bikes has been stable or coming down.

The issue is that there has been a lot of advancement at the top so people who want to ride the same bikes the pros are riding have to pay a lot more. This can create social pressures where people buying bikes based on some perceived status feel they have to spend more money to maintain the same perceived status level of their bike.

This is a real phenomenon, particularly in a competitive environment like racing, but it's a very different phenomenon than "inflation."

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by vertr

Right, every time I see someone do the actual math the pricing changes are bang-on for inflation aside from the absolute top of the market.

I agree that the top of the market surfed exponentially over the last 4 years. My wife and I were actually talking about this just yesterday because we saw a $6000 riding lawnmower at home depot and also saw one priced the same as the one I bought 12 years ago, but the new one was way less impressive(inflation).

Anyways, I do think there has been a big jump in price for some bikes in the middle of the market too.
There are 105 bike options from major brands that are carbon frame with 12sp di2, hydraulic disc brakes, aluminum wheels, and full internal routing priced at $5000.

^ That sort of bike slimply didn't exist as widely available stock oem option for $4100 in 2019. It didn't exist in part because 105 was 11sp cable, but that's part of the point- costs have increased past inflation in some instances because the level being compared has jumped in features.




Again, not disagreeing with your point that the top of the market has surged in cost. It definitely has, in many instances.

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by litcrazy

I do think folks want to present inflation as the same item for the same price.

No one is asking what the price of an iPhone 10 is right now. They compare the newest iPhone in 2024 to the newest iPhone in 2014. They don’t say inflation doesn’t apply because it has a bigger screen, faster processor and additional cameras. Likewise when considering the cost of automobiles, I don’t see the same consideration of trying to adjust inflation consideration to subtract technological advances.

This apples to apples comparison strategy seems to lose track of why road cycling is perceived as less and less accessible. I think that comparing an aluminum bike from 2006 to a carbon bike in 2024 isn’t particularly unreasonable when you look at market share.

I fear this kind of thinking will create blindspots in the industry that will just make road cycling more and more out of touch from most people in the same way skiing has gone. With the continuing trickle done effect that more and more people will view bikes on roads as at best a nuisance and at worst trespassers.

I partly see the point you are making and partly don't understand it at all.
Your comment about not being able to compare apples to aolles because the tech is fundamentally different is a good one, and I referenced that in a post I just made about 105 now compared to 105 bike from 5 years ago.

I don't understand why you conclude this creates blinds spots in the industry though. I think the industry is very aware of the consequences of advancing tech and addresses those consequences in varying ways.
- SRAM for the road has clearly said 'we don't care' about offering less expensive options.
- Shimano for the road has clearly said 'we partly don't care, but we also partly do care, oh and here is some sort of universal plug-n-play tech that we think will work for the less expensive end of the market'.
- Campy has clearly said 'ci preoccupiamo solo dei vecchi ricchi'.
- And brands like Microshift, ltwoo, and Sensah have clearly said 'we will fill the void and maybe convince users to them upgrade to our more advanced tech later on'.


I really don't think this is a blind spot to the industry.
You can still buy a major brand road bike for under $1k, not discounted- Trek domane al2. One of my kids has had one of those for 4 years now and even trained for and rode an ironman on it.
Road cycling can be very accessible still.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

I agree that the top of the market surfed exponentially over the last 4 years. My wife and I were actually talking about this just yesterday because we saw a $6000 riding lawnmower at home depot and also saw one priced the same as the one I bought 12 years ago, but the new one was way less impressive(inflation).

Anyways, I do think there has been a big jump in price for some bikes in the middle of the market too.
There are 105 bike options from major brands that are carbon frame with 12sp di2, hydraulic disc brakes, aluminum wheels, and full internal routing priced at $5000.

^ That sort of bike slimply didn't exist as widely available stock oem option for $4100 in 2019. It didn't exist in part because 105 was 11sp cable, but that's part of the point- costs have increased past inflation in some instances because the level being compared has jumped in features.




Again, not disagreeing with your point that the top of the market has surged in cost. It definitely has, in many instances.

While that didn’t exist widespread for the bigger brands it certainly existed for smaller/consumer direct brands. Also comparing the lowest end elect groups from 2024 to 2019 is kind of tough since 105 di2 and rival axs weren’t available at that time. A better comparison might be to look at Ultegra / Force mechanical compared to 105/rival electric.

Take a look at these ~$4k bikes released in 2019, they’re about the equal to that $5k 105 di2 bike now:
https://99spokes.com/bikes/lauf/2019...eekend-warrior
https://99spokes.com/bikes/canyon/20...l-disc-8.0-di2
https://99spokes.com/bikes/fezzari/2019/empire-sl-pro
https://99spokes.com/bikes/trek/2019/domane-sl-6-disc
https://99spokes.com/bikes/specializ...rmac-disc-comp
https://99spokes.com/bikes/specializ...ompultegra-di2

[litcrazy]

I agree that there are deals out there and one can break into the sport on a budget. I do it by riding last decade's technology. But I think there's a lot of momentum against it.

I hear reports of a real like of enthusiasm from shops when friends go looking for those bikes when they feel they've outgrown their hybrid or want to ride more once their kids are older and less dependent on them.

Likewise, my college aged son reports quite a bit of snobbery towards lower tier bikes and/or disbelief about the functionality of those bikes provided the right (human) motor among his riding peers.

I know I'll be told cassettes and chains are so much better now, but I can't get my brain around the cost a new twelve speed chain and cassette. And prices have started to come down.

I just broke into 10 speed with my friction shifters, so I know it can be down, but the I fear the increased cost of the cool bikes in the magazine gear reviews and in the shops is awfully off-putting and isn't helping grow the sport.