OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[kppolich]

Originally Posted by benb

LOL my 2013 Outback only makes 360 miles on a route that's favorable and if I keep the speed below 70mph the whole way. And my back will probably convince me to stop earlier. Nothing is really wrong with my back except that seat.

My biggest concern with the current EVs is how many still don't have a heat pump.. a lot of the EVs that look fine in the summer look like they might be annoying for ski/snowboard trips in the winter. Our typical trip is about 200 miles, it sounds like there are a whole bunch that are well above that on a 65 degree day but drop below 200 miles when the temperature is below freezing. If I had to really get a new car it'd probably be the deciding factor pushing me into a Tesla.

Yep, heat pump in my model 3 makes heating and cooling far less taxing on the battery system compared to earlier or other models. Thats the #2 reason I went with a little newer model, right behind increased range and black trim.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by benb

LOL my 2013 Outback only makes 360 miles on a route that's favorable and if I keep the speed below 70mph the whole way. And my back will probably convince me to stop earlier. Nothing is really wrong with my back except that seat.

My biggest concern with the current EVs is how many still don't have a heat pump.. a lot of the EVs that look fine in the summer look like they might be annoying for ski/snowboard trips in the winter. Our typical trip is about 200 miles, it sounds like there are a whole bunch that are well above that on a 65 degree day but drop below 200 miles when the temperature is below freezing. If I had to really get a new car it'd probably be the deciding factor pushing me into a Tesla.

Our Kia EV6 uses a heat pump to heat the cabin as well as condition the battery. I've driven it in temps of -20° F and stayed plenty warm. It works well.

My wife and I used the car for about 3100 miles this past winter going to/from our ski area and it never missed a beat. With 4 aggressive snow tires mounted it's a monster in the snow and on ice.

dave

[robt57]

Trick is to precondition and do your cold remote starts while still Level 2 connected. Then it uses the interface and not the HV battery before you get in it and roll... At least with ours.

PHEV below 39^ will start ICE on remote starts. And heat and wheel heat on. I never tried the remote with the PHEV plugged in [below 39^] I don't use it much as I like to not hear the ICE motor at all.

[xcandrew]

Originally Posted by pasadena

Like used cars now that are past warranty with unknown engine and trans health?

Don't know if you've looked at used car prices but $10k won't buy much, ice ev or hybrid.

There are plenty of ice cars around and will still be around for decades.

For those that have wrenching knowledge (I learned mostly on YouTube over the years), $10K is enough to get a really good car. Engines and transmissions can be assessed, and you should do specific research/have knowledge of the issues/reliability of those car models, engines, and transmissions. It helps if you read forums on those cars for years, check the NHTSA complaints, recalls, major TSBs, learn all the potential issues, and stay within your specific knowledge zone. My specific knowledge is mainly on 1995-2004 Subarus and Priuses. I see potential used cars that would fit the description of good sub-$10K in forums, as well on wrenching videos on YouTube or car blogs. It's possible if you start with a proven quality car.

Those good ICE cars won't always be around though, the ones in my sweet spot of after OBD-II (1996+) and before CANBUS (2005). I mean, mine will, and a few that will end up on Bring a Trailer and Cars and Bids in a few decades, but the good ones that you will be able to pick up and fully sort for under $10K will disappear or be really rare. The first generation Subaru Legacys ('90-'94) are also nice, but they are an example of cars that old being hard to find in good shape, and the parts are now hard to find (reminds me, I need to stock up on some parts for my 2003, as many non-engine parts are being discontinued). I prefer cars older than 2005. They are all CANBUS after 2005, and I'm all about repairability and how long I can run a car into the future. See General Disorder's comments below on CANBUS in Subarus, but also all cars 2005+. He's the owner of a Subaru performance shop.

It's extremely frustrating. You can go down the path of fixing every poor connection and ground only to arrive at no solution and have to throw computers at it because of course there's no way to actually test anything when it comes to the CANBUS - you can look at waveforms on a scope and potentially see something that's being pulled high or low - but if the problem is intermittent - lotsa luck with that noise. And since the packet data is considered intellectual property and not published you would have to spend literally 100's (if not thousands) of hours sniffing the packets on a known good chassis to reverse engineer the CANBUS signaling and then build a data logger that could identify an intermittent bad packet and who sent it, etc. Who's going to pay for this? Currently I have no takers. And yes I have people at my disposal that can do it. The tools and expertise and the hours it would take FAR exceed the value of a 10+ year old Subaru.

In consumer products there is not enough redundancy, not enough pre-release testing, insufficient on-board diagnostic equipment and software, and then on top of all that the manufacturer is actively trying to thwart your repair efforts by hiding how it works behind the curtain of "intellectual property". Basically they expect us to repair something that is essentially "PFM" (Pure F*cking Magic)..... what the really want is the car off the road so they can sell someone a new one. I'm entirely over it - why continue to fight this fight? It's one thing to fix something that's broken with proper documentation - it's another to have to HACK your car and play reverse engineer against a team of engineers that are paid to thwart your efforts...... yeah screw all that.

https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum...omment-1432819

Then you have the CANBUS electrical mess. That's a whole different topic and applies to almost all vehicles ~2005+ or in the case of Subaru about 2008+. Personally I can't own anything from the last ~18 years on the consumer side. It's all plastic crap that's smothered in electronics that's all the "intellectual property" of Subaru and essentially that means you really don't own the car at all - Subaru just lets you use it for a fee and when they decide to no loner support it you will have a nice lawn ornament rather than the car you "paid" for.

https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum...omment-1437856

When I fix all the issues of an older car to make it as nice as possible rather than "good enough", it turns into a really special car. I really love my Subaru, obsess over it, probably more than any of you love your new appliance cars.

My last car was actually bought off the internet, sight unseen in a different state. I used my knowledge to make an informed decision, and it turned out to be a good one. Not that I recommend that tactic, but the price was low enough that if it needed a new head gasket/more than doubling the price, it still would have been worth it.

[benb]

Not sure how the parallel fighting about Subarus is relevant here.

But all the stuff about "thwarting repairs" is as true as true can be.

Subaru and I believe Kia/Hyundai are so opposed to right to repair they disable a lot of the advanced/connected features on their new cars here in Massachusetts because of the state's right to repair laws and the new laws that don't allow the car companies to basically take/spy on any data in the car without the owners consent/knowledge.

They're basically the only companies so spiteful as to take that step. They don't give you a discount for all the disabled features and some people have said if you move here with an out of state car and take it to the dealer they'll do the procedure to disable all those features on your car.

My Subaru is old enough to not have any of this stuff.. overall dealing with the dealers here sucks so much those 2 things and some of the other stuff like bad gas mileage and so on basically make another one a no go.

[saab2000]

My Tesla is absolutely an appliance. And mostly that's what I want in it.

If someone wants to rehab old ICE cars that's their prerogative but that's not really what this thread is about or for. There are plenty of car threads but this one is for EVs and EV-curious drivers.

Not everyone has the time, means, inspiration or whatever to research old used cars and get grit under their nails fixing it up.

I'll be taking my appliance on a road trip again in a couple days to a bike event in Michigan and will have my rack attached. I expect a quick 15 minute top-up charge between Chicagoland and Grand Rapids while I stop for a bite of lunch.

The Nr. 1 reason I opted for the Model Y over Model 3 is that it is available with a factory 2" trailer hitch receiver, with wiring.

[benb]

Any issues around right to repair or data transparency are going to be even worse with EVs due to their high tech nature, that's all.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by benb

Any issues around right to repair or data transparency are going to be even worse with EVs due to their high tech nature, that's all.

true, and yet it is likely that there will be less to repair overall.

Liking old Subies is a risky biz in New England, where they were some of the most rust-prone products. I imagine that out west would be a better place to nurse an older car along. I have a 2020 Honda Fit because my '08 rusted out, very sad since it only had about 111,000 miles on it.

I used to like working on cars but in my senior years I'd rather pay someone to do it and ride my bike.

[pasadena]

massive logic drift

Originally Posted by xcandrew

It helps if you read forums on those cars for years, check the NHTSA complaints, recalls, major TSBs, learn all the potential issues, and stay within your specific knowledge zone.

Just like with any car- ev, ice or hybrid.

I wrench on my vehicles.
By your argument, it doesn't matter if it's ICE or EV, the software locks DIY'ers out on all modern cars.
That has nothing to do with people buying ev's. It's not a ev specific argument. It's a corporate product planning argument.

EV's are far more simple than ICE cars.

Even in these relatively early days of mass ev's, people figure out ways to wrench on them. In EU, they can swap a i3 or Leaf battery in time for lunch. That started as a DIY garage project.

People take Tesla drivetrains and put them in classic cars. Far more simple than a ICE conversion. That is a backyard diy that turned into a cottage industry.

All of that is irrelevant to what the discussion was on affordable ev's and secondary market cars. I don't even know what you're arguing for anymore.

So it's no longer about affordable vehicles for people that can't afford new ev's, it's about wrenching on pre-2005 cars?
The idea that people needing a used car will buy a two decade old ice car and be ok with a blown headgasket is insane. That sounds more viable to you than used ev with 30% less range?
DIY'ers will exist no matter what we drive. ICE, EV or flying cars. Hot rodders, modders and wrenchers will be there.

When full ev's like the Bolt are around $26k new, without any incentives, prices of ev's will become more affordable as the market grows.

Used EV's like Bolts, Leafs, i3's used to be dirt cheap. You could get any of them used for $10-15k.
Now that demand is so high, used market is very competitive. But, that will change.

In fact the largest factor in ev sales is supply and predatory dealers. The sooner that changes or dies, the better for the consumer.

Originally Posted by xcandrew

For those that have wrenching knowledge (I learned mostly on YouTube over the years), $10K is enough to get a really good car. Engines and transmissions can be assessed, and you should do specific research/have knowledge of the issues/reliability of those car models, engines, and transmissions. It helps if you read forums on those cars for years, check the NHTSA complaints, recalls, major TSBs, learn all the potential issues, and stay within your specific knowledge zone. My specific knowledge is mainly on 1995-2004 Subarus and Priuses. I see potential used cars that would fit the description of good sub-$10K in forums, as well on wrenching videos on YouTube or car blogs. It's possible if you start with a proven quality car.

Those good ICE cars won't always be around though, the ones in my sweet spot of after OBD-II (1996+) and before CANBUS (2005). I mean, mine will, and a few that will end up on Bring a Trailer and Cars and Bids in a few decades, but the good ones that you will be able to pick up and fully sort for under $10K will disappear or be really rare. The first generation Subaru Legacys ('90-'94) are also nice, but they are an example of cars that old being hard to find in good shape, and the parts are now hard to find (reminds me, I need to stock up on some parts for my 2003, as many non-engine parts are being discontinued). I prefer cars older than 2005. They are all CANBUS after 2005, and I'm all about repairability and how long I can run a car into the future. See General Disorder's comments below on CANBUS in Subarus, but also all cars 2005+. He's the owner of a Subaru performance shop.



https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum...omment-1432819



https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum...omment-1437856

When I fix all the issues of an older car to make it as nice as possible rather than "good enough", it turns into a really special car. I really love my Subaru, obsess over it, probably more than any of you love your new appliance cars.

My last car was actually bought off the internet, sight unseen in a different state. I used my knowledge to make an informed decision, and it turned out to be a good one. Not that I recommend that tactic, but the price was low enough that if it needed a new head gasket/more than doubling the price, it still would have been worth it.

[xcandrew]

Originally Posted by pasadena

massive logic drift


Just like with any car- ev, ice or hybrid.

I wrench on my vehicles.
By your argument, it doesn't matter if it's ICE or EV, the software locks DIY'ers out on all modern cars.
That has nothing to do with people buying ev's. It's not a ev specific argument. It's a corporate product planning argument.

EV's are far more simple than ICE cars.

Even in these relatively early days of mass ev's, people figure out ways to wrench on them. In EU, they can swap a i3 or Leaf battery in time for lunch. That started as a DIY garage project.

People take Tesla drivetrains and put them in classic cars. Far more simple than a ICE conversion. That is a backyard diy that turned into a cottage industry.

All of that is irrelevant to what the discussion was on affordable ev's and secondary market cars. I don't even know what you're arguing for anymore.

So it's no longer about affordable vehicles for people that can't afford new ev's, it's about wrenching on pre-2005 cars?
The idea that people needing a used car will buy a two decade old ice car and be ok with a blown headgasket is insane. That sounds more viable to you than used ev with 30% less range?
DIY'ers will exist no matter what we drive. ICE, EV or flying cars. Hot rodders, modders and wrenchers will be there.

When full ev's like the Bolt are around $26k new, without any incentives, prices of ev's will become more affordable as the market grows.

Used EV's like Bolts, Leafs, i3's used to be dirt cheap. You could get any of them used for $10-15k.
Now that demand is so high, used market is very competitive. But, that will change.

In fact the largest factor in ev sales is supply and predatory dealers. The sooner that changes or dies, the better for the consumer.

Sure, I followed some remarks into thread drifts, but the in the forums I frequent, the drifts are typically standard and as interesting as the original question. (I don't like places with overly moderated discussion.)

I agree it's corporate product management. But that's why when you brought up ICE cars being available decades into the future (for my pro-poopbox argument), I pointed out that they ones more likely to be favored for old poopboxes are already starting to disappear.

I'd like to hear more about the Euro battery swaps for the i3 and Leafs. I haven't read about that and how much the battery packs cost (or how good they are). That is the main question that I still see in the future of having usable EV poopboxes. I know people are ingenious, so maybe acceptable solutions will be found in the aftermarket (but those darn manufacturers locking things down don't help).

You say EVs are simple to repair. But that isn't the problem. I hope that battery packs for repairs will actually be affordable in the future but I don't hold much hope for that though. What incentive do the OEMs have to do that? None at present. I think I already mentioned the 8.8kWh battery pack for the Prius Prime is $10K. I'd like to see reliable battery health assessments and disclosures when used EVs are sold but am not sure that is possible. Battery pack degradation is often non-linear when they are old/dying. There are other ideas that try to solve this issue, such as the car being sold, but the battery being leased (Vinfast), and swappable batteries (numerous EV trucks in China) that are intended to mitigate this problem, but they are not mainstream.

Yes, I'm aware of a person doing Tesla swaps into vintage cars - Matt Brown (Superfastmatt). I also know about Derek Young, the engineer who made an old Leaf a AWD hybrid by putting a Kawasaki Ninja engine in the back. Those are awesome projects, but not DIY-able for most, including me. Superfastmatt is a former Tesla engineer, and Derek is a Battlebots veteran and judge.

The idea that people needing a used car will buy a two decade old ice car and be ok with a blown headgasket is insane. That sounds more viable to you than used ev with 30% less range?

Well I did it. My sight-unseen-purchase 2003 Subaru was $2.1K. It turned out the head gasket was already replaced, and it ran and drove well and had no major leaks and zero rust when I bought it. I was replacing a Prius that I had totaled in a caribou collision and had received $7K in the insurance payout. I consider a reliable vehicle that I like and will last a decade plus into the future to be worth $10K, so I had $7.9K to work with. I didn't have to do the head gasket, but did things to make it perfect mechanically, like all the potentially deferred maintenance, all fluids changed, ultra-high performance tires, new struts/shocks, and a year later, a new OEM clutch and the remaining leak fix. Even spent $250 for PDR for a single dent. This brought the all-in total to $4K. If it turned out I had to pay $3K for a head gasket replacement, that would be $7K all-in, which is still within my $10K what-a-good-car-is-worth-to-me and the same as my Prius insurance payout (and I like the Subaru better). But no, I'm still only at $4K, and I have $6K in the pocket left for what I think the car is worth. (A recent BaT or Cars and Bids sale of the same car as mine in an auto trans but lower mileage went for $13K.)

Yes, it's way more viable than an EV with 30% less range. The EJ251 engine with the proper MLS head gasket is permanently repaired (no more HG failures) and an excellent engine by all accounts and will last me the rest of my life considering my low driving mileage (there's a million km Outback that towed campers around Europe with the engine). Also, I sometimes do drives between Alaska the New England, something that an EV can't do without special tricks now. I drove from CA to New England a few weeks after I bought it, so I had no questions trusting it.

LOL my 2013 Outback only makes 360 miles on a route that's favorable and if I keep the speed below 70mph the whole way.

I got a 500 mile tank out of my Legacy on that first cross country drive.

Liking old Subies is a risky biz in New England, where they were some of the most rust-prone products. I imagine that out west would be a better place to nurse an older car along.

Yes, that's why I bought mine sight-unseen from California. When I had the clutch replaced by an independent Subaru mechanic in NH, he was shocked, saying he'd never seen a Subaru with no rust. On the phone before I went, he was telling me it might not be worth it to replace the clutch, assuming it was a New England car. When I picked it up, he warned me to stay off the roads in the winter, which I already was doing. The techs at Profile Subaru in NH were also shocked at the condition, no rust, no leaks when they did the airbag recall on it. I'm staying off salted roads for now, but thinking of Fluid Filming or woolwaxing it.

[pasadena]

I think you have to spread your knowledge base beyond youtube algorithm suggestions. Most of that is self-promotion, click bait and fear mongering.

It's weird you say SuperfastMatt is not DIY, when all his content is, in fact, DIY. It's just DIY you don't understand. He's not doing anything unusual.

He's entertaining, and has a lot of knowledge he's sharing but a lot of what he's doing is out there already being done. He's building on knowledge base, which is how DIY grows.


Most people want to buy a good, reliable vehicle as close to new condition as possible. That is 99% of the buyers out there.
"I did it" isn't an argument against ev's.

[xcandrew]

I watch YouTube to learn things that I'm interested in learning and have a potential use for (and entertainment). I haven't watched EV repair videos because I don't plan to buy an old EV, the costs seem too prohibitive to consider, and I don't need another car. If at some point I decided it was a good idea to buy an old EV with a dead battery, I'd look into it.

I'm not reveling in ignorance or anything like that. If you have a specific video or written article that can break down the costs to replace an EV battery pack that would be low cost enough for normal people to consider broken down EVs, I'll read or watch it. I haven't come across any in mainline auto blogs. Among other things like Subaru and Prius forums, I skim Jalopnik, The Drive, and have read every single article on the Autopian since they started a year ago (maybe 3,500 articles), a blog with a lot of wrenching stories and a lot of pro-EV writers, and haven't seen an article like that.

I'd be interested in the cost, warranty on the work if not DIY, whether they use new cells plus good old cells (and does that turn into whack-a-mole long term like the old Prius hybrid packs repaired that way) or totally new cells. I saw a similar comment to yours in the Autopian comments for one of their articles yesterday (mentioning EVWest... I may be the only one in this thread beside you? who has heard of them). What do you know? Why not provide some numbers, since you are an expert. How much does it cost to make a Leaf with a dead battery a reliable, usable car? How about a Tesla Model 3? Looking at used Tesla battery packs from presumeably crashed cars on ebay now, I guess those are much less than new from Tesla, but at $5K-9K for just the used battery pack/no labor/no car maybe too much for a poopbox depending on a person's budget. At least I know the numbers for a Prius hybrid and Prius Prime.

I didn't say Superfastmatt isn't doing DIY. Just not DIY-able for the typical person who isn't a mechanical or electrical engineer. edit: I haven't watched any battery pack related videos from him, so I was thinking of him (or Derek Young) doing the 3D scanning of cars and parts, 3D modeling, designing custom parts, ordering stuff from sendcutsend, etc. - the stuff I find interesting on his channel. If you think that is DIY-able for the average person, then I don't know. I have an engineering degree (materials), but from decades back where we didn't use computers for any of that study. My line of work isn't engineering, so my only 3D modeling experience is playing with the tutorials for OnShape. Seems like a lot more training would be needed to learn mechanical engineering than just his YouTube videos.

The DIY I'm doing with my cars is just simple auto mechanics. There are factory service manuals and TSBs in some cases to work off of, plus Youtube videos. That's more accessible for people to do themselves at home with very little in terms of tools, and time to learn, and time to repair. And I'm using independent mechanics (at very reasonable rates worth paying) for things that I don't have equipment (like a lift) to do, such as clutch replacement.

Not 99% of people can afford $10K+ cars. Shades of Serotta forum? Plenty of people need low-cost cars, including me (overly educated, but free time>working).

[buddybikes]

For what it's worth. Good friend of mine is doing bit of marketing/consulting to a newly opened car dealership whose 100% sales are used EV's north of Boston. She keeps telling me about it, thinking we will go up and trade one of ours in. I told her bluntly, we're not doing anything, just putting in charger at our house would be a major issue, 100 amp service, live in flood plain etc. Plus we drive both cars probably 7500 a year.

[pasadena]

Originally Posted by robt57

As Tesla Starts a huge Battery building facility in CNH. But then again, Telsa keeps dropping prices and way over numbers sold to qualify for US Fed Tax credit I guess..

To your point, I read a short range Y is coming- cheaper than the standard range.
Also, if spy photos are accurate, the new Model 3 will be cheaper than the current model.

In both cases, Tesla has industry leading profit margins and can definitely target the tax credits at will.

There is a big downside to this, but Tesla doesn't really care about customer loyalty or brand value. It's a commodity sales mentality.

[robt57]

LOL, selling the PHEV Pacifica tomorrow. Bought a used 2018 gas guzzler Sedona yesterday. Keeping the Bolt.

At 300-400 miles a month use the math watching the expensive PHEV Pacifica depreciate way faster than $ save on fuel... I am out. It was a good 28 Month run.