OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[pasadena]

Tesla's NACS is the superior design but the US Gov already set CCS as a requirement to qualify for the incentives.
No legacy brand will adopt NACS because it's Tesla's network.
No matter how terrible Electrify America and all the other charger networks are- and they do suck.

Tesla has the 'magic' plug adapter at select superchargers so they can qualify for the federal $.
Since it's all through the Tesla app, when you pull the charger out, the CCS adapter comes with it if you are "non tesla" on the app.
If you have a Tesla, only the NACS pulls out and the CCS adapter stays in the base. Pretty clever.

Nissan had the CHAdeMO plug but that is basically a dead design in the US.

Everything is CCS or NACS. Just as with many standards out there, the best design doesn't mean it's going to be the dominant design.

[mcteague]

I suspect that the resale value of EVs will be much lower than ICE vehicles. The tech just keeps advancing, so selling a 5-8 year old EV will be like an old PC or smartphone. I suspect things will settle down as the technology matures but I'm not quite ready to adopt just yet.

Tim

[mcteague]

dupe

[p nut]

Originally Posted by mcteague

I suspect that the resale value of EVs will be much lower than ICE vehicles. The tech just keeps advancing, so selling a 5-8 year old EV will be like an old PC or smartphone. I suspect things will settle down as the technology matures but I'm not quite ready to adopt just yet.

Tim

I’d think the main reason would be battery life. Years ago, I considered a first gen Volt. Until I read how much it was to replace the batteries. I’m told typical life is ~10 years. Regardless of mileage/number of charge cycles.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by p nut

I’d think the main reason would be battery life. Years ago, I considered a first gen Volt. Until I read how much it was to replace the batteries. I’m told typical life is ~10 years. Regardless of mileage/number of charge cycles.

I don't think that's true. "What Tesla Says About Battery Lifespan. According to Tesla's 2021 impact report, its batteries are designed to last the life of the vehicle, which the company estimates as roughly 200,000 miles in the U.S. and 150,000 miles in Europe.Feb 27, 2023"

[bikinchris]

Originally Posted by MikeD

I don't think that's true. "What Tesla Says About Battery Lifespan. According to Tesla's 2021 impact report, its batteries are designed to last the life of the vehicle, which the company estimates as roughly 200,000 miles in the U.S. and 150,000 miles in Europe.Feb 27, 2023"

Even that is turning out to be VERY conservative. Batteries, unless they are abused are lasting far longer than the estimates.
But people are happy to listen to pro oil company FUD.

[jtakeda]

Originally Posted by bikinchris

Even that is turning out to be VERY conservative. Batteries, unless they are abused are lasting far longer than the estimates.
But people are happy to listen to pro oil company FUD.

I would hope it’s conservative. 150-200k is mid life IMO

[p nut]

Originally Posted by MikeD

I don't think that's true. "What Tesla Says About Battery Lifespan. According to Tesla's 2021 impact report, its batteries are designed to last the life of the vehicle, which the company estimates as roughly 200,000 miles in the U.S. and 150,000 miles in Europe.Feb 27, 2023"

Again, this was years ago. Maybe battery tech has improved. The info I got was from a Volt-specific reseller dealership. The guy was very knowledgeable and told me he’s seen them go out (on the average) 10 years.

If that’s not the case anymore, that’s great.

[MikeD]

The battery in my Toyota Prius is 10 years old, 105K miles and still going strong. I don't see people complaining on the Prius Chat forum about traction battery life.

[buddybikes]

Originally Posted by MikeD

The battery in my Toyota Prius is 10 years old, 105K miles and still going strong. I don't see people complaining on the Prius Chat forum about traction battery life.

Same thing here 10 years, our former car 2007 which we passed down to our daughter was still working, perhaps finally showing age, when traded in in 2020

[pasadena]

Tesla battery’s expected life vs. warranty coverage

On Twitter, Elon Musk explained that Tesla car batteries should last for 300,000 to 500,000 miles or 1,500 battery charge cycles.
That’s between 22 and 37 years for the average car driver, who, according to the Department of Transportation (DOT), drives 13,476 miles per year.

One Tesla owner has reportedly driven his Tesla Model S over a million miles, according to CleanTechnica. Though that Tesla battery has lasted, the owner reports having replaced his Tesla motor several times.

How long does a Tesla battery warranty last?

It’s one thing to know how long a Tesla vehicle’s battery could last, but it’s another to know how long it should last with reasonable performance. The 300,000 to 500,000 miles mentioned by Elon Musk on Twitter isn’t the same as Tesla’s battery warranty.

A new Tesla battery and drive unit warranty covers two things:

Length of time or miles driven (eight years or 100,000 to 150,000 miles driven, depending on the model), whichever comes first
A guaranteed battery capacity of 70 percent of its starting capacity during the warranty period

So, for the Model S, Tesla says that if your car holds less than 70 percent of its original battery capacity after driving it for eight years or 100,000 to 150,000 miles (whichever comes first), you’re eligible for “any repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship”, for free.

[72gmc]

https://youtu.be/1wVzNQNBUTo

Chris Harris reviews the Polestar 1 hybrid, which should be very nice for that price.

The use case he describes appeals to me: electric in town, electric + IC in the countryside. As I look forward to a less urban future, I’m hoping there are more hybrid vehicles to consider.

[xcandrew]

Originally Posted by bikinchris

Batteries, unless they are abused are lasting far longer than the estimates.
But people are happy to listen to pro oil company FUD.

As someone who is never going to buy a new car and holds onto cars for a long time, this is absolutely a big problem. How do you know a battery in a used car is good and hasn't been abused? Right now, you don't. The only safeguard is the warranty, but if you're like me, and you buy cars that are old enough to be off warranty or near that, that is an insurmountable barrier when the replacement costs $15K-$30K. By the way, I'm an environmentalist, have arranged my life for decades since I was a kid to consume less and drive way less than most other environmentalists, went through college without a car, didn't buy my first car until I was 29, and spend most of my working career as an environmental scientist. I've always loved cars, but I car geek like I bike geek, as an engineer (schooling at least), but consume very little.

Here's an article showing what someone buying a used EV really worries about:

https://www.theautopian.com/every-ca...attery-health/

Originally Posted by MikeD

The battery in my Toyota Prius is 10 years old, 105K miles and still going strong. I don't see people complaining on the Prius Chat forum about traction battery life.

I'm a long-time-regular on Priuschat. The Prius hybrid traction batteries absolutely have a lifespan, and the recommended ways to deal with it has changed from earlier years. They will typically last longer than 10 years but will be on last legs if not fail by 15 years. Years ago, people would replace individual cells, rebalance the pack and repeat. This would always turn into a game of whack-a-mole. They would have to keep replacing individual cells. Now, the recommendation is to replace the whole battery pack, either with the OEM or with a complete set of cells from the aftermarket. The OEM battery pack price dropped to $2.5K+installation which is totally reasonable in my opinion, but a barrier to most used car buyers.

The older Prius batteries are NiMH, so not the same tech as current EVs, but there are lessons to be learned in both battery life expectation and resources used. You get the benefit of electrification (lower emissions in particular is the current focus) at a much lower cost in using up the currently limited amount of battery manufacturing capacity. The Prius hybrid battery is only 1.3Kwh. The first Prius plug-in was 4.4kWh, the second 8.8 kWh, the newest 13.6kWh (all plug-in versions, the hybrid remains much smaller). I know the 8.8kWh battery pack in the second generation costs $10K, which easily puts a used plug-in Prius/Prius Prime (or any other PHEV) out of consideration for me. I'd consider buying the hybrid version of the same generation though with $3K in the reserve fund for a battery replacement at some point in my ownership).

Originally Posted by pasadena

Tesla battery’s expected life vs. warranty coverage.
___
One Tesla owner has reportedly driven his Tesla Model S over a million miles, according to CleanTechnica. Though that Tesla battery has lasted, the owner reports having replaced his Tesla motor several times.
___

So, for the Model S, Tesla says that if your car holds less than 70 percent of its original battery capacity after driving it for eight years or 100,000 to 150,000 miles (whichever comes first), you’re eligible for “any repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship”, for free.

You'll find on numerous posts on Tesla forums of people having the Model S battery pack fail just after (and just before) the 8-year warranty mark. The ones that fail just before are happy, the one that fail after are screwed. I don't know the frequency of either. Maybe it is really low, maybe not. Considering the ramp in in production since then, there are relatively few Teslas that old. But as someone considering a used EV, the only one I'd take a chance on is one where the battery pack has failed and was just replaced with a new one.

David Tracy ended up buying that i3 because he found it was covered under CA PZEV rules for 10-years. So he got a used i3 with range extender with a new battery (on-back order, he's still waiting on it to come) for $10K. That's the kind of deal I would go for, otherwise I'd avoid a car with a larger than hybrid battery.

https://www.theautopian.com/i-bought...oke-of-genius/

About the million-mile-Tesla, you say "That battery pack has lasted." That is not true. It had the battery pack replaced at least two times (so three or more batteries to hit one million) and was on its eighth motor unit.

https://insideevs.com/news/592845/te...million-miles/

On YouTube, Hoovie's Garage bought a used Tesla years ago, found it had a failing battery, and ended up sending it off to get the battery pack fixed aftermarket (by another Youtuber) for something like $5K. It worked after that, but he didn't hold onto it long afterwards. I suspect the fix was a good as the old Prius battery cell-swaps - something that would ultimately end up a game of whack-a-mole. I sure wouldn't have bought it off him afterwards.

[MikeD]

If you live in a CARB state, the battery is warranteed for 10 years, 150,000 miles.

On my 2013 Prius, my biggest concern is not the battery, but the head gasket going out, which seems to be a too frequent failure on Priuses with over 100K miles. It's a great car but after 100K miles not the most reliable one out there, IMO reading the Prius Chat forum.

[xcandrew]

Originally Posted by MikeD

If you live in a CARB state, the battery is warranted for 10 years, 150,000 miles.

On my 2013 Prius, my biggest concern is not the battery, but the head gasket going out, which seems to be a too frequent failure on Priuses with over 100K miles. It's a great car but after 100K miles not the most reliable one out there, IMO reading the Prius Chat forum.

Right, my response is basically about older EVs and hybrids and buying them used, so expecting to use a car entirely or mostly beyond the warranty period, including any potentially extended by CARB (my cars are 20 and 27 years old, so I consider a 10-year-old car to be newish). People buying new aren't worrying about this except that it affects when they sell the car. They might want to sell before the warranty ends, or a few years before because the value after the warranty ends is very low. Or maybe they choose to lease to not have to worry about it.

Your third Gen Prius does have potential head gasket problems, with it being worse on the 2010-2012 in particular. The reason is that EGR system (EGR passages in intake manifold and the EGR cooler) gradually gets clogged, reducing flow. This increases combustion temperatures and eventually causes failure of the head gasket. More typically, it happens above 150K miles (sometimes way above), with fewer examples closer to 100K miles. There were changes to the piston and piston rings in 2014 and 2015 respectively that reduced blow-by and oil consumption and likely slowed the clogging of the EGR system. The fourth Gen Prius put the EGR beyond the catalytic converter, so it's pulling from cleaner exhaust and doesn't get clogged. Head gasket issues are not a problem in that generation (and presumably not in the new Gen 5).

There is some warning of EGR clogging and I suspect those that ignore check engine lights and don't keep up with maintenance are more likely to have earlier head gasket failure. The check engine light comes on if there is insufficient EGR flow. There was also a revised EGR valve (your 2013 might have it as production change, but I'm not looking up the date of change) at some point that was taken care of with an extended warranty. There are directions on Priuschat on how to clean your EGR cooler and intake manifold EGR passages, and I'd advise that you do it or pay to have it done if you want your 2013 to last. I did that work on my 2010 that I bought at 150K miles, and it never had head gasket issues (car was totaled in a caribou collision at 180K).

I actually don't consider a head gasket problem in a Prius to be disastrous (just like I don't consider it to be an issue in the Subarus that have it). On the one hand, 100K-150K is already an old car by most standards. It can be fixed for a few thousand dollars, or you can swap in the plentiful and therefore inexpensive Gen 4 engine for little money because they don't have head gasket problems and there's a large supply from crashed vehicles. A few thousand in repair, you still have reliable, still cheap to run transportation. I don't like thinking in terms of "more than the car is worth", instead preferring something like: when fixed, the car is otherwise in good shape to run another 150K, and that is worth $8K-$10K to me and the alternative, getting a new car is going to cost way more. When buying used, it can even be a negotiating tactic to get more money off something you want (people including me love their Subarus with repaired head gaskets). Anyway, it's nothing like the cost of replacing a battery in an EV - that easily goes into the definitely not worth it category. There's a famous used Tesla Model S that was blown up because there was no way the guy who bought it was willing to pay $22K to replace the battery.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/26/...on-repair-bill