OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[Davist]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

In large part because the local power generating company doesn't like to see their profit$ go down with 'self-generated' electricity. Lots of $ being thrown into many politician's pockets to maintain the election grid 'status-quo'.

In general, the more solar, the more "peaking plants" you need that can spin up quickly (so more natural gas at night to paint with a broad brush). Generation is intermittent as has been discussed, so 1MW of solar doesn't really result in 1MW x 24 hour availability given weather etc. Net result in California, as an example has been higher utility rates due to smaller intermittent peaking plants and more grid instability. but anyway, yeah, profits..

[benb]

We don't have an EV but we're seeing all kinds of games the electricity providers are playing here to try and prop up fossil fuel generated electricity versus renewables. We have separation of transport versus generation.. you can pick a different generator and then it goes into a market or something before being transported to your house.

Sweetheart deals to lock you into a long term contract with natural gas based electricity so you don't switch off, etc..

We also have a municipal plan that is more renewable, they have steadily been getting it to the point it beats the pricing on the stuff that is not renewable, but we always get a sweetheart deal to stop us from switching.

They also do some stuff like quote rates with different units..

[BdaGhisallo]

Originally Posted by Davist

In general, the more solar, the more "peaking plants" you need that can spin up quickly (so more natural gas at night to paint with a broad brush). Generation is intermittent as has been discussed, so 1MW of solar doesn't really result in 1MW x 24 hour availability given weather etc. Net result in California, as an example has been higher utility rates due to smaller intermittent peaking plants and more grid instability. but anyway, yeah, profits..

Yep. 'Going Green' is a lot more complicated than it appears at first.

[MikeD]

This is an interesting article https://news.climate.columbia.edu/20...-be-expensive/

IMO, California is basically being set up for failure.

In the mean time, "China permitted more coal power plants last year than any time in the last seven years." https://www.npr.org/2023/03/02/11604...ies-report-fin

[paredown]

My recent discovery--a dedicated 20a circuit (using standard yellow jacketed 12 gauge wire) can be rewired as 240v, simply by switching the breaker connection to a 20a/240v breaker, and adding a single NEMA 6-15 outlet. For continuous load code says 80% load, so ~16 amps continuous at the outlet.

I've recently had to do this to connect some shop tools--and was surprised that such a circuit change required nothing fancy -- just the breaker and outlet change.

My thinking is that pulling a circuit like that is much easier (and may already exist for some people) and will give decent charging time with less expense than pulling heavy wire & a big breaker.

At 80% load/~16 amps, this charging site, that would give you about 8 hrs of charging time to go from 20% to 80% on a Tesla standard model 3.
https://evadept.com/calc/ev-charging-time-calculator

So decent charging time for people who are charging overnight.

[PSC]

We were thinking of upgrading from our 110 outlet, which gives us a 6 miles per hour charge. Not great if you want to turn around and go somewhere else. But now that we have a Supercharger within a mile of our house, that project is on hold.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by PSC

We were thinking of upgrading from our 110 outlet, which gives us a 6 miles per hour charge. Not great if you want to turn around and go somewhere else. But now that we have a Supercharger within a mile of our house, that project is on hold.

I would still do the upgrade at home. Home charging is, IMHO, the magic of EV ownership. Disregarding the convenience, which is huge, it's also cheaper for most people. I paid $.38/KwH at Tesla Superchargers on a recent trip to Michigan. At home in a western suburb of Chicago I pay about $.12/Kwh.

Finally, Tesla recommends home charging for their vehicles for most usage, reserving Supercharging for times when home charging isn't available. It is easier on the battery AFAIK.

Doing the upgrade at your house, however you choose to do it, will eventually likely pay for itself financially and it is just massively more convenient to charge when the car is idle in my garage.

[benb]

If/when we get even 1 vehicle I think I'm going to have an electrician come in and set up 2x 60A/240V stations in the garage.

We have a detached garage, it will not be cheap as the wiring for the garage will have to be re-trenched (with the accompanying annoying inspection). My guess is it would have been $3000-3500 total before the inflation so who knows what now. We will also need a service panel upgrade, because we only have 2 slots left on our existing panel, which is only enough for 1x 60A/240V runs.

But it would 100% not be cost effective to do one and then do another later.

I have looked at a few $1M+ houses locally that have paid an electrician to setup a charger and yet did this stuff curiously wrong. What on earth is the point of paying an electrician to run an underground cable and then you don't do the electrical correctly and maximize charging while you're at it? One of these houses I am 100% sure would trip breakers if the EV was charging and someone opened the garage door at the same time, and they paid for all that only got a 40A charger out of it or something. They had put a subpanel out the garage, but then the whole thing was stuck on a single 60A breaker inside the house on the other end. Sorry that house had a hot tub too.. I meant hot tub heating + EV charging + garage door is opened, but wiring the hot tub that way was also highly questionable.

Likewise there's a brand new ground up $2.2M house around the corner from us that has failed to sell for 6 months now.. the builder went absolutely crazy and yet did not bother to put a charger in. But then he/she also went and configured a house that expensive and put in 2x natural gas furnaces and traditional air conditioners. Not exactly forward looking.

I'm sure we're going to get whacked when our contract expires in 3 months but we are at $0.08/kwh.

[saab2000]

It's insane that modern ground-up houses wouldn't be properly wired for at least one charger in a garage. That doesn't mean it needs to be installed by a builder. Not everyone will want a charger and there are different brands, etc. But it's coming and it seems it'd be pretty smart to wire homes to be ready for when it's more ubiquitous.

For the record, it cost me about $1500, including the Tesla Wall Connector, to have it professionally installed by an electrician. I live in a townhouse and so the wire distances weren't too long but it wasn't as short as it might have been either. Also, it involved cutting drywall that was reinstalled but not repaired. Eventually I may do that but it's not urgent because I live alone and am not planning to sell anytime soon.

The electrician who did mine last summer said that about 75% of his business now is installing EV home chargers.

[benb]

I think our area is just expensive, I'm guessing that $3000-4000 range after what it cost us to do underground 60A/240V out to our hot tub a couple years ago. Since then all trade work here has skyrocketed.

New service panel + wiring out through our finished basement and then out the foundation of the deck + under the walkway + 20ft underground run + wiring everything up in the garage is just a big job.

[ThomasAylesbury]

Here in Maine we have Tesla charging stations powered by generators. To my way of thinking someone is not telling the whole story.

[benb]

Who says those generators are less efficient than ICE vehicles though.

That chain could still be more efficient/less emissions than a bunch of cars burning stuff. ("could be")

I mean at some point you have to build those chargers where people want them if the market is there.

[PSC]

We have 2 60amp/240 circuits with wiring already installed in the garage from our old pool heater. All we really need is the charger and someone to connect the wiring. We should probably do it, as the city will give us a rebate.

[Davist]

Originally Posted by benb

Who says those generators are less efficient than ICE vehicles though.

That chain could still be more efficient/less emissions than a bunch of cars burning stuff. ("could be")

I mean at some point you have to build those chargers where people want them if the market is there.

I'd bet that the multiple conversions: diesel burning to rotary motion to electric generation (about 40% or less if you count the engine inefficiencies) and then electric conversion (ac gen output to dc to charge batteries) at about 75-90% would make this less efficient than just ICE (similar engine inefficiencies ignored above). BUT that doesn't mean there's not good reason for it (ie the "grid" can't handle large "block" loads of chargers at that point) agreed on your utilization point.

[Ozz]

Just as an FYI, back in 2021 we got a bid to install a dedicated car charger circuit at our house. Tough install as the circuit breaker was on opposite side of the house (and in the basement) from the garage. We were doing a bunch of other electrical work (panel upgrade, additional circuits, outdoor heaters, emergency generator, etc) so we had them add the car charger too.

Bid was for about $2500, plus $275 city permit, plus another $277 sales tax, so just over $3000 total.

I would guess that this is higher than most other places, and contractor is known for not being the cheapest (but they are easy to work with, show up on time, and only bill what they bid).

We ended up not doing it....holding off until we were closer to actually having an EV.

Anyway....thought some folks might find interesting if considering this....