Mosaic RT-1 Pricing // Custom frame pricing

[Matthew]

Just buy a Moots.

[John H.]

Internal routing is an option at Seven.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9hTJiPns8F/
But I don't think it is offered on every type of frame. Needs to be 1" stays, I am not sure what else.

Originally Posted by jkbrwn

That’s interesting. I just ordered a Seven through Summer Cycles and internal routing wasn’t an option on road frames. Nor is it on Seven’s order form. In fact, their site explicitly states that they do not offer it to protect the integrity of the frames life.

The only two notes under cable routing are:

Disc Brake : Zip Tie Guides under Down Tube and under Chainstay Rim Brake: Brake Cable Stops at 7:30 on Top Tube

[unterhausen]

Of all the things you could upcharge for, custom geometry is probably the most reasonable. Back and forth with the customer, possibility of something going wrong, individual setups for tube and fixtures, etc. Not addressing the baseline price, but it doesn't seem that out of line to me. I always figured that most people just aren't willing to spend what it takes for a framebuilder to make a decent living. Which is why many of them don't stick around that long.

[jkbrwn]

Originally Posted by John H.

Internal routing is an option at Seven.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9hTJiPns8F/
But I don't think it is offered on every type of frame. Needs to be 1" stays, I am not sure what else.

Considering Kelly is sponsored by Seven, I’d take any bike she’s riding with a pinch of salt.

[happycampyer]

Originally Posted by prototoast

I disagree. I think it's pretty easy to get up to the same price ballpark as Mosaic from many titanium builders.

Just look at someone like Carl Strong, who is fairly transparent with his a la carte pricing:

https://www.strongframes.com/frames-and-pricing/road/

3200 for a base titanium frame
+400 for double-butted titanium
+575 for an Enve disc fork
+170 for a Chris King headset (MSRP)
+200 for a cast headbadge
+250 for internal brake routing
+1500 for a fancy paint job (not listed on his site, but I've paid $1500 for a Mosaic-level paint job, and similar to paint options listed by Seven Cycles https://sevencycles.com/paint/portal-scheme.php).

That comes to about $6300 for something comparable. I had a different builder quote me at $300 per hole for internal routing, so for brake (2 holes) + di2 (3 holes), it would have added $1500 to the ~$4000 base frameset price.

I'm not saying Mosaic bikes are a bargain, or that you couldn't find something cheaper, but when you start including all the fancy options that Mosaic offers as standard with the 1-series, the price really isn't out of line with what you'll see from most other titanium builders.

I have started and stopped typing replies to this thread, and this ^ is basically what I was going to say. Some companies are more cagey than others when it comes to pricing their frames (including costs for extras). When you add in the costs for common upgrades such as internal brake routing, etc., the prices of the various premium brands are closer than they might appear. The base prices for Moots have crept up over the years, and when you add in extras, it's pretty easy to get into the mid-$5K range. And if you want certain details like a tapered headtube, your choices narrow.

Originally Posted by Jeff N.

What gets me is the big upcharge some folks add for custom geometry (Moots, No22). I mean...how tough can it be?

Talk to these builders and you will get what I think is a good explanation—a shop that is set up for production has a different workflow than a shop that is set up for custom. Dave Kirk had a good discussion about this somewhere as well. In addition, a company like Moots with stock sizes can cut tubes for a batch of frames, and the jigs etc. are all set up so it's easier to produce multiple frames at a time. The efficiency means time and cost savings, which are passed on to customers. For the customer who wants a one-off, the cost is higher.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by Jeff N.

What gets me is the big upcharge some folks add for custom geometry (Moots, No22). I mean...how tough can it be?

Originally Posted by happycampyer

Talk to these builders and you will get what I think is a good explanation—a shop that is set up for production has a different workflow than a shop that is set up for custom. Dave Kirk had a good discussion about this somewhere as well. In addition, a company like Moots with stock sizes can cut tubes for a batch of frames, and the jigs etc. are all set up so it's easier to produce multiple frames at a time. The efficiency means time and cost savings, which are passed on to customers. For the customer who wants a one-off, the cost is higher.

As happycamper wrote, exactly.

The two worlds (stock versus custom) are very different, especially as the shop gets smaller in size. I recall Jim Kish, who is a one-man ti-only custom shop (who even stopped making steel frames because it was no longer cost-efficient/competitive) tried to do some production/stock geo frames, and he just couldn't make it work economically for the price reduction he had to ask for them.

At his one-man output of ~50 frames/year (by comparison Moots build ~1,000/year) there was no gain in "mass" producing some (iirc maybe 15/20 at most) stock frames at one time. The jigging for the 4 or 5 stock sizes wasn't efficient enough, and then the built but unsold frames needed to be stored, etc. He said it was a logistical headache. A builder like that lives on pretty tight margins apparently. Everything has to sell and one-in/one-out custom-only work turned out to be the most cost-efficient for him and other small-batch builders.

That said, I do not know how shops that offer both stock and custom calculate their cost increase % for custom geometry.

[54ny77]

Ok well now that really does it. Tomorrow I'm gonna go out to eat some Italian food and piss all over the chef and manager for daring to charge me $21 for pasta and sauce that only costs $.92 to make. Oh and I'm going to demand--DEMAND!--that the pasta be Le Veneziane gluten free, that the sauce be devoid of any cream or milk product, and to please substitute any salt used in the recipe with Rapha artisanal organic sustainably produced Himalayan sea salt. And I expect--EXPECT!--that I will be charged the same price because there should be no legitimate reason to upcharge me. Just because.

[Coffee Rider]

Bike purchases are as much about rationalizations as anything else. In that same vein, most people who get custom bikes seem to think they were a good value in the sense that they got what they really wanted.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by weisan

I remembered reading a post by David Kirk providing some details and insight into the price/cost/reality/economics of a framebuilder. It was sobering.

Interested in learning more, could you point us to the post?

[weisan]

Sure...it's in the context of this thread that he started but more specifically in post #16.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2621397

[many_styles]

Originally Posted by weisan

Sure...it's in the context of this thread that he started but more specifically in post #16.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2621397

Thanks for sharing... I hope this shed some light to some people.


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[msriddle]

Mosaic does indeed love Mosaic....
I was interested in one of their frames that Pros Closet had a year or so ago. I reached out to Mosaic and even offered to pay for a drawing and or other detailed info on the frame. They had no interest in helping what so ever. I’d never buy anything from them or pros closet.

I’d Look at Moots, Bixxis, Stelbel TI9 or any number of other ti options.

[NoMoreParagon]

Originally Posted by msriddle

Mosaic does indeed love Mosaic....
I was interested in one of their frames that Pros Closet had a year or so ago. I reached out to Mosaic and even offered to pay for a drawing and or other detailed info on the frame. They had no interest in helping what so ever. I’d never buy anything from them or pros closet.

I’d Look at Moots, Bixxis, Stelbel TI9 or any number of other ti options.

Well they didn’t even send me the bikecad file of the bike I purchased from them thru a dealer, when I asked.
As I said I find them very focused on dealers.
It’s just the way their biz model is working I guess


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[joosttx]

Originally Posted by msriddle

Mosaic does indeed love Mosaic....
I was interested in one of their frames that Pros Closet had a year or so ago. I reached out to Mosaic and even offered to pay for a drawing and or other detailed info on the frame. They had no interest in helping what so ever. I’d never buy anything from them or pros closet.

I’d Look at Moots, Bixxis, Stelbel TI9 or any number of other ti options.

Yeah those Mosaic bastards built me a bike, did everything I asked, and delivered it before the promised due date and had the freaking nerve to thank me even before I paid them in full for their work. What jerks? Next time, I’m going to try and nickel and dime them, get more than they offer and have them stroke my ego and babysit my kids. I really hate good businesses.

[Jeff N.]

Originally Posted by NoMoreParagon

Well they didn’t even send me the bikecad file of the bike I purchased from them thru a dealer, when I asked.
As I said I find them very focused on dealers.
It’s just the way their biz model is working I guess


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I ordered my Mosaic RT-1 directly from them but I knew all my numbers/options (angles, lengths, finish, TT slope, 1" stays, 44mm HT, rear cable routing, pump peg/chain hanger, rim brakes, etc.). THERE is the difference...they'd rather not deal with the "what's your inseam" BS...they'd rather let a shop go through that rigomerol. That's my guess, anyway. It REALLY helps to know your numbers. It cuts straight to the chase.