Vintage Audio part 5 - Speakers

[William]

In scanning the web and reading about how different speaker designers and mfr's attempt to make speakers realistically recreate the sound to make you feel like you are right there at the concert/show/performance..it got me thinking. The goal seems to be to realistically recreate that sound and energy that you feel being there at a performance large or small.

Question:
To that point, don't most performers use PA/horn style speakers on stage to be able to A.) Play loud, and B.) Clearly transfer their sound to the audience (in most cases)?

If this is the case, then why don't more audio enthusiasts/audiophiles like PA/horn style speakers for listening? Wouldn't that better recreate the actual sound they claim they are after?

In reading different audio blogs and watching videos that touch on the subject I get the sense that most so called audiophiles look down on these types of speakers. This seems odd to me since the sound/dynamic you are looking to recreate is often rendered through them. I can't remember who said it but it makes me thinking of a quote I heard in a video...

"Are you listing to your equipment through music, or are you listening to music through the equipment?"

Of course I could be off base here but I figured I would run it through some of the experienced ears that frequent this place.








William

[avalonracing]

What sucks is that by the time most of us can afford any decent equipment we have long since lost a bit of our hearing. Too bad I couldn't afford a $90,000 system when I was 17 years old. I sometimes think that this is the reason that music isn't as important to us when we get older. It just doesn't "hit the same notes"... well, technically frequencies, for us.

[kingpin75s]

Originally Posted by William

I'm sure these Revel Ultima Gem speakers sound amazing...but they look like a telephone booth to me.

William

Those old Gem speakers are fantastic. A close friend, and one who's system I consider a reference point, had those powered by some Great Northern Sound Modded Audio Research Classic 120s and paired with a set of Velodyne 18" subs (set with a very low crossover). His room was purpose build to the golden ratio, is well conditioned and his sound is amazing. Note that he has his pulled out almost to the middle of his listening room with the subs on the front wall.

That said, he just replaced the Gems with the new Revel M126Be speakers and he is very happy. Speaker technology does get better and better and Revel does have a great engineering department.

[kingpin75s]

Originally Posted by avalonracing

What sucks is that by the time most of us can afford any decent equipment we have long since lost a bit of our hearing. Too bad I couldn't afford a $90,000 system when I was 17 years old. I sometimes think that this is the reason that music isn't as important to us when we get older. It just doesn't "hit the same notes"... well, technically frequencies, for us.

I assumed the same before walking the path. Now I believe that the difference in true HiFi is so stark and clearly different from what most systems provide, that I do not believe standard age based loss plays any role with respect to enjoying or hearing great HiFi. It is much harder to find someone with or build a truly great system, than it is to enjoy it once you are there.

Fortunately the price point does keep dropping as technology advances and you can get into great sound for much less. That said, most of the long time (and I will stick to my blue collar hobbyist friends) people I know who are deep into this (think decades), have systems that retail in the $40-50K range. I do clearly mean retail as they run a mix of new and used equipment from the 90s through current. IMHO the marginal gains above that point get very slim.

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by William

In scanning the web and reading about how different speaker designers and mfr's attempt to make speakers realistically recreate the sound to make you feel like you are right there at the concert/show/performance..it got me thinking. The goal seems to be to realistically recreate that sound and energy that you feel being there at a performance large or small.

Question:
To that point, don't most performers use PA/horn style speakers on stage to be able to A.) Play loud, and B.) Clearly transfer their sound to the audience (in most cases)?

If this is the case, then why don't more audio enthusiasts/audiophiles like PA/horn style speakers for listening? Wouldn't that better recreate the actual sound they claim they are after?

In reading different audio blogs and watching videos that touch on the subject I get the sense that most so called audiophiles look down on these types of speakers. This seems odd to me since the sound/dynamic you are looking to recreate is often rendered through them. I can't remember who said it but it makes me thinking of a quote I heard in a video...

"Are you listing to your equipment through music, or are you listening to music through the equipment?"

Of course I could be off base here but I figured I would run it through some of the experienced ears that frequent this place.








William

I don't think any true audiophiles judge their home systems by comparing them to so-called "live" concerts where the electrified music is blasted at the audience at painful levels after being shaped/modified through mixer boards. That sound probably has little to no resemblance to a true non-amplified/equalized performance.

[tuscanyswe]

I will never be an audiophile. And these are not vintage but they are based on a nolder speaker at least..

To me they sound amazing, better than various much more expensive systems ive heard.

I struggle to see why i would ever need more than 2 of these with the simplicity of cloud speakers and the sound they deliver. Pretty great and they dont take up that much space either..

[William]

Originally Posted by Ken Robb

I don't think any true audiophiles judge their home systems by comparing them to so-called "live" concerts where the electrified music is blasted at the audience at painful levels after being shaped/modified through mixer boards. That sound probably has little to no resemblance to a true non-amplified/equalized performance.

Not exactly what I meant, I'm not just talking about ear shattering death metal. Almost any performance from any group, individual, orchestral, or symphonic is amplified unless it's extremely small and intimate...and even then it often is. If you are talking studio it probably is as well unless acoustic, but then often the audio engineers work the sound so is it a true representation? How often do acts sound the same live as their studio work?

The point I was trying to get to is that the comments like"they sound so good you feel you are right there in the audience" seems odd to me because if you were right there in the audience you would most likely be listening to amplified sound through PA/Horn style speakers.







William

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by William

Not exactly what I meant, I'm not just talking about ear shattering death metal. Almost any performance from any group, individual, orchestral, or symphonic is amplified unless it's extremely small and intimate...and even then it often is. If you are talking studio it probably is as well unless acoustic, but then often the audio engineers work the sound so is it a true representation? How often do acts sound the same live as their studio work?

The point I was trying to get to is that the comments like"they sound so good you feel you are right there in the audience" seems odd to me because if you were right there in the audience you would most likely be listening to amplified sound through PA/Horn style speakers.







William

I think your deductive reasoning is a little off, and I'll tell you why.

PA/Horn speakers are not designed for sound reproduction, but for sound amplification. The concert venue (ie shape, materials and acoustics), speaker placement and mixing board is responsible for reproducing and shaping the tonality, soundstage, and imaging of what the audience hears. Comparing commercial horn/PA speakers is almost like comparing a spotlight to an IMAX projector.

And how a band sounds "live" vs "studio" is a totally different beast altogether.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

PA/Horn speakers are not designed for sound reproduction, but for sound amplification. The concert venue (ie shape, materials and acoustics), speaker placement and mixing board is responsible for reproducing and shaping the tonality, soundstage, and imaging of what the audience hears.

That's true, and that's the primary reason why audiophiles [sic] don't use actual professional sound reinforcement speakers, and why only in a tiny niche of this already tiny niche hobby do folks use horn speakers (generally in the ultra-low-power Single Ended Triode camp of extotica).

But it's perhaps worth noting that:
A) The old venerable classic Klipsch speakers were functionally identical to the state-of-the-art PA speakers that were available at the time
B) A few current residential speaker manufacturers are making products that have more in common with professional sound reinforcement systems than with typical hobbyist audiophilia: check out Pro Audio Technology, Alcons Audio (who actually started in the pro sound world and expanded into the home theater/audiophile world), and the Meyer Sound Bluehorn (also a pro company venturing into residential theater/2-channel)
C) Some of the PA systems being employed these days don't use compression drivers in horns but rather ribbon drivers in waveguides, thus having more in common with contemporary audiophile systems than previously imaginable.

But basically it comes down to distance: Unless your listening room is the size of a hockey rink you don't need -- or even want -- a loudspeaker that's designed to throw high-SPL sound to a listener >100' away regardless of how high-fidelity that sound may be.

[djg]

Originally Posted by avalonracing

What sucks is that by the time most of us can afford any decent equipment we have long since lost a bit of our hearing. Too bad I couldn't afford a $90,000 system when I was 17 years old. I sometimes think that this is the reason that music isn't as important to us when we get older. It just doesn't "hit the same notes"... well, technically frequencies, for us.

I have nothing against 90,000 dollar systems or folks who can and do afford them. Some of my own gear is more expensive than many would consider reasonable, even if I fall way the heck short of a 90k spend.

One observation: I’m no spring chicken at 58, but I’ve heard live music ranging from pop to Americana to bluegrass to classical in the past year, and I’ve seen plenty of people who seem to be my age and older listening to live music. No, aging does not tend to help HF hearing...and yet...

One over the top judgement: Really? There’s much one might appreciate about good gear properly set up, but if you cannot enjoy recorded music absent a 90,000 dollar system — or a 9,000 dollar system — then either something’s gone horribly wrong or it was never about music to begin with.

[daker13]

Originally Posted by William

If this is the case, then why don't more audio enthusiasts/audiophiles like PA/horn style speakers for listening? Wouldn't that better recreate the actual sound they claim they are after?

Well, a lot of audiophiles have a different paradigm of what live music is. For instance, anyone listening to chamber music, orchestral music, or acoustic jazz (50s-60s) doesn't want to listen to music through a PA system.

A more general question is, why don't more audiophiles use horn speakers? And the answer to that is, many people think they sound honky, squawky, and that they're fatiguing.

This isn't ALL horn speakers, and a lot of it depends on your amplifier; it's much less of an issue if you're using a SET.

While I really like how dynamic horn speakers sound, how alive they sound, most of the ones I've listened to ultimately leave me with the feeling that I'm being beaten over the head with the music. They're bright. Some of the more expensive horn speakers are supposed to be better when it comes to this.

One of these days I'm going to buy a pair of Lowther drivers and build myself some cabinets. I've never heard them, but they're supposed to be amazing. I'd pair it with a few watts of SETs or a Pass amp.

I know a bunch of people who really like Klipsch speakers and I've had a couple pairs of them at different times. They're often playing in my friend's record store and they always sound good. But, to me they sound bright. One of the things I like about the classic Snells and Audio Notes is that they sound pretty dynamic but are not fatiguing. I also have a lot of love for the BBC sound (Rogers/Spendor/Harbeth) but I find it can be a little laid back.

[William]

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

That's true, and that's the primary reason why audiophiles [sic] don't use actual professional sound reinforcement speakers, and why only in a tiny niche of this already tiny niche hobby do folks use horn speakers (generally in the ultra-low-power Single Ended Triode camp of extotica).

But it's perhaps worth noting that:
A) The old venerable classic Klipsch speakers were functionally identical to the state-of-the-art PA speakers that were available at the time
B) A few current residential speaker manufacturers are making products that have more in common with professional sound reinforcement systems than with typical hobbyist audiophilia: check out Pro Audio Technology, Alcons Audio (who actually started in the pro sound world and expanded into the home theater/audiophile world), and the Meyer Sound Bluehorn (also a pro company venturing into residential theater/2-channel)
C) Some of the PA systems being employed these days don't use compression drivers in horns but rather ribbon drivers in waveguides, thus having more in common with contemporary audiophile systems than previously imaginable.

But basically it comes down to distance: Unless your listening room is the size of a hockey rink you don't need -- or even want -- a loudspeaker that's designed to throw high-SPL sound to a listener >100' away regardless of how high-fidelity that sound may be.

Thanks, and that gets me closer to "getting it". I've come across a few article's and video channels that say it certainly is doable to run audiophile amps with modern pro audio speakers and get good sound. That said and to your point, I'm not sure I would want to try it...I like the plaster walls in our house.







William

[pobrien]

I have Klipsch Heresy III speakers and Klipsch Forte II speakers and find them to be excellent for me.

I run them off modern Yamaha amplifiers A-S1000 and A-S2000 (S for silver and each about 100 w/channel). They are very good amplifiers.

I am not an audiophile. I enjoy music. I think there is an important point made by William regarding what speakers are/were used at concerts and that they are what we heard and that is what is authentic.

What comes out of a studio could be quite different. They are both good.

Klipsch has released a new version of the Forte speakers (III?) modelled very closely (or identical) to the Forte II speakers.

To me that says a lot as there has to be the demand for Klipsch to do this.

I think I need a set of the latest Forte speakers!

Patrick

[Jeff N.]

Originally Posted by OtayBW

I'm no audiophile, but I vividly remember the feeling I got back in the day of hearing Bose 901s. Maybe not the most technically 'articulate' speaker as some have alluded, but there was a certain feeling of spaciousness, or concert hall 3D vibe that nothing else touched. This talk makes me want to unpack my old turntable system that I've had in boxes for years....

I think 901's are the worst speaker ever to come down the pike. For my money, Paradigm speakers are the way to go. They're gonna cost more but well worth it, IMO.

[William]

Originally Posted by pobrien

I am not an audiophile. I enjoy music. I think there is an important point made by William regarding what speakers are/were used at concerts and that they are what we heard and that is what is authentic.

What comes out of a studio could be quite different. They are both good...


Patrick

Yes, that is getting to the point I was trying to make.

Even if a live event is mixed and EQ'd before it comes out of the pro-audio speakers that musicians use it is still the sound that people experience. Wouldn't a good recording run through a decent amp and pro-audio speakers be closer to that mark than audiophile speakers? Not that it would sound bad, just possibly different.






William
PS: Also a Klipsch fan.