OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by zap

edited



Alas, it is not just Tesla. MB and BMW among others have followed. I have yet to see a YouTube reviewer of automobiles who like this trend.

We test drove some current Mercedes and have to say.....as an exclusive Mercedes household.....we are looking at other manufacturers....manufacturers that continue to use buttons for oft used functions.

The Tesla has decent functionality in the scroll wheels in the steering wheel. At least it has a steering wheel! I also have physical turn signals and wiper functions, but to change the wipers? Gotta hit a touchscreen icon.

It has really gotten out of control. I'm also not in love with the centered huge screen. The Model S has a normally placed "dashboard" though my Y does not.

It's inexcusable in 2023 for these cars not to have a heads-up display. My 1998 Pontiac Grand Prix had a super usable heads-up display that showed a bunch of useful data as if projected 30 feet in front of the car. No need to divert attention from the road to see speed or what radio station or whatever has happening.

The voice commands are decent but I don't use them enough.

But the point is that too much is happening that distracts the driver from the task at hand.

Yeah, I have also seen the complaints about Mercedes-Benz products. It's like a race to see who can make the craziest concept car into reality that's pretty but actually has vastly diminished human ergonomics.

[bikinchris]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Dave, I’m definitely curious about your experiences with public charging. I’ve only once used a non-Tesla charger and that was a Volta free charger at a Walgreens and then only to see if it worked. It did. But it’s a level 2 AC charger, like you’d have at home, in other words, too slow to be of significant use during a short Walgreens stop. I have yet to use an Electrify America or ChargePoint charger.

An update on my experience: home charging is stupid easy. At just over 6000 miles so far this is the clear highlight of EV ownership. It’s also far cheaper but that’s moot because I spent many thousands of dollars to save money on energy! Hopefully it will eventually pay off but that’s probably decade out.

But as mentioned above, there are things I don’t like about the Tesla. It’s a piece of technology that doubles as a car. I strongly dislike the emphasis on form over function with regards to operating various functions of the car, especially climate control and the infotainment. The UI is way less intuitive than Apple CarPlay and often has the driver diverting attention from driving. This kind of thing is a Tesla problem though, not an EV problem.

My 2014 Ford Transit Connect allows me to make changes to navigation, climate and entertainment by voice command. I never need to have my hand away from steering or eyes off the road. The Synch system works well with just a little training.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Exactly - this is one of the things that seems to get lost. We accept the fact that 2/3 of the gas we burn produces nothing but waste heat because it's always been that way. It's a baseline if you will.

If ICE cars were just being developed and we were all told that 2/3 of the money we spend, and 2/3 the emissions we breathe, is for nothing the idea would never make it past the prototype phase.

dave

While EVs are more efficient than ICE vehicles, that ignores the inefficiencies of power generation, which mostly comes from natural gas and coal.

"Fossil fuels are the largest sources of energy for electricity generation
Natural gas was the largest source—about 38%—of U.S. electricity generation in 2021. Natural gas is used in steam turbines and gas turbines to generate electricity.

Coal was the second-largest energy source for U.S. electricity generation in 2021—about 22%. Nearly all coal-fired power plants use steam turbines. A few coal-fired power plants convert coal to a gas for use in a gas turbine to generate electricity."

Steam and gas turbines are not efficient. Nat gas and coal has to be drilled/mined and transported.

Most people charge their cars at night when the electric rates are cheaper and they are not using the vehicle. Solar power doesn't work at night.

A hybrid vehicle, like the Toyota Prius compares well against an EV when you look beyond just the efficiency of the vehicle and see the big picture. Plus, taking a long trip in one is a lot more practical.

I just read an article that EVs are most likely to be totaled when involved in an accident making insurance rates higher for them.

[David Kirk]

I have almost zero experience with public charging. I charged the car twice publicly and locally before I was able to install the home charger and I've not been far enough from home to need to charge out in the wild yet. This summer for sure.

dave

Originally Posted by saab2000

Dave, I’m definitely curious about your experiences with public charging. I’ve only once used a non-Tesla charger and that was a Volta free charger at a Walgreens and then only to see if it worked. It did. But it’s a level 2 AC charger, like you’d have at home, in other words, too slow to be of significant use during a short Walgreens stop. I have yet to use an Electrify America or ChargePoint charger.

An update on my experience: home charging is stupid easy. At just over 6000 miles so far this is the clear highlight of EV ownership. It’s also far cheaper but that’s moot because I spent many thousands of dollars to save money on energy! Hopefully it will eventually pay off but that’s probably decade out.

But as mentioned above, there are things I don’t like about the Tesla. It’s a piece of technology that doubles as a car. I strongly dislike the emphasis on form over function with regards to operating various functions of the car, especially climate control and the infotainment. The UI is way less intuitive than Apple CarPlay and often has the driver diverting attention from driving. This kind of thing is a Tesla problem though, not an EV problem.

[robt57]

Posting update to previous PHEV comments, experience.

My comments re cold VS warm performance etc.

We had a few mid 60s days recently. My Pacifica MPG avg went from 43ish to 53ish. Better than last years jump this quick. But car is more broken in now @ 13k on the clock.

[David Kirk]

I'm very fortunate to have a wife who is a senior science writer and researcher for NASA Climate and she has done a lot of work in this area. I risk going above my pay-grade if I try to cite too many details but I can relay some generalizations with accuracy.

The dirtiest way to make electricity is with a coal powered steam plant...and the cool thing is that even a dirty coal powered plant is cleaner than an ICE car. This is calculated by looking at emissions per mile in a gas car and comparing that to the power plant emissions for the electricity needed to power an EV over the same distance. So...even the worst way to make electricity to power an EV is more efficient than a gas car.

Maybe even more important is the fact that every power grid in the USA uses a mix of sources for power with coal being just one of many. Gas plants are more efficient than coal and they make up a significant amount of power in the USA. Nuclear is more efficient than coal....and of course renewables are much more efficient than coal. And coal generated electricity is more efficient than a gas powered car.

The cheapest way to generate power in the USA at this point is by renewables...wind, solar and hydro...and that means that power companies are adding more renewables and phasing out coal over time. This is not due to a "war on coal" but instead it's because the free market has spoken and coal costs too much when compared to other ways to make electricity. Coal is dying a slow death and...I'll say it one more time...even coal powered power plants are more efficient than an ICE car. As the grid is added to and updated coal is less and less depended on to make power so the efficiency of EV's will get better over time.

So in the end the attempt to say "yeah but coal power..." to try to undermine the idea that an EV is more efficient is factually wrong. We hear a lot of it of course but it's simply wrong.

I get that you might not like EV's and it's cool - you don't have to buy one. Gas pumps will be around for decades so if you don't want to change you won't need to. But many others will and the air will be cleaner and the skies bluer because of it. The change over to EV's will be slow and long and in the end it will not be a complete change. Some things will be powered by gas or diesel for a very long time to come.

But for many, myself included, an EV for a daily driver gives a lower operating cost, better efficiency, and an improved driving experience.

dave

Originally Posted by MikeD

While EVs are more efficient than ICE vehicles, that ignores the inefficiencies of power generation, which mostly comes from natural gas and coal.

"Fossil fuels are the largest sources of energy for electricity generation
Natural gas was the largest source—about 38%—of U.S. electricity generation in 2021. Natural gas is used in steam turbines and gas turbines to generate electricity.

Coal was the second-largest energy source for U.S. electricity generation in 2021—about 22%. Nearly all coal-fired power plants use steam turbines. A few coal-fired power plants convert coal to a gas for use in a gas turbine to generate electricity."

Steam and gas turbines are not efficient. Nat gas and coal has to be drilled/mined and transported.

Most people charge their cars at night when the electric rates are cheaper and they are not using the vehicle. Solar power doesn't work at night.

A hybrid vehicle, like the Toyota Prius compares well against an EV when you look beyond just the efficiency of the vehicle and see the big picture. Plus, taking a long trip in one is a lot more practical.

I just read an article that EVs are most likely to be totaled when involved in an accident making insurance rates higher for them.

[Ralph]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

I'm very fortunate to have a wife who is a senior science writer and researcher for NASA Climate and she has done a lot of work in this area. I risk going above my pay-grade if I try to cite too many details but I can relay some generalizations with accuracy.

The dirtiest way to make electricity is with a coal powered steam plant...and the cool thing is that even a dirty coal powered plant is cleaner than an ICE car. This is calculated by looking at emissions per mile in a gas car and comparing that to the power plant emissions for the electricity needed to power an EV over the same distance. So...even the worst way to make electricity to power an EV is more efficient than a gas car.

Maybe even more important is the fact that every power grid in the USA uses a mix of sources for power with coal being just one of many. Gas plants are more efficient than coal and they make up a significant amount of power in the USA. Nuclear is more efficient than coal....and of course renewables are much more efficient than coal. And coal generated electricity is more efficient than a gas powered car.

The cheapest way to generate power in the USA at this point is by renewables...wind, solar and hydro...and that means that power companies are adding more renewables and phasing out coal over time. This is not due to a "war on coal" but instead it's because the free market has spoken and coal costs too much when compared to other ways to make electricity. Coal is dying a slow death and...I'll say it one more time...even coal powered power plants are more efficient than an ICE car. As the grid is added to and updated coal is less and less depended on to make power so the efficiency of EV's will get better over time.

So in the end the attempt to say "yeah but coal power..." to try to undermine the idea that an EV is more efficient is factually wrong. We hear a lot of it of course but it's simply wrong.

I get that you might not like EV's and it's cool - you don't have to buy one. Gas pumps will be around for decades so if you don't want to change you won't need to. But many others will and the air will be cleaner and the skies bluer because of it. The change over to EV's will be slow and long and in the end it will not be a complete change. Some things will be powered by gas or diesel for a very long time to come.

But for many, myself included, an EV for a daily driver gives a lower operating cost, better efficiency, and an improved driving experience.

dave

Thanks for that post Dave. I believe you are correct. I know I will be moving to at least one of my vehicles being an EV next time.

[saab2000]

As I mentioned further up the thread, I don't think folks should run out and replace a perfectly good ICE car with an EV. But as the time on your 180,000 mile Camry or Accord is coming to a close, maybe it's a good time to take a look.

I sold a perfectly good VW Tiguan and sort of do have some regrets about that. It probably wasn't even half way into its expected lifespan and was paid off in full a few years ago. So taking on a car payment wasn't probably the smartest thing I've ever done. But I can afford it so it's all good.

I love Dave's post about efficiency of power sources. This jives with what I've read as well.

A curious thing will happen when electric cars (and other devices that store energy and can be connected to the grid - home batteries for example) become two-way sources and are in fact part of the grid on a macro scale. It has as many questions as answers but is an interesting concept. My car is sitting in my garage right now at an 80% state of charge. That's a lot of potential and unused energy sitting around.

[benb]

I've definitely been attracted to EVs as the shiny new item but I'm sitting tight.

By the time my Subaru actually dies the money I've put away instead of buying an EV will probably have earned enough dividends to buy the new car.

EVs ought to be a lot better in 5 years or more, and it's definitely wasteful to replace cars often.

All these new cars are so luxury focused too. MTB and Ski/Snowboard is really rough on the interior of my car, I don't really need to be trashing a luxury car.

[robt57]

Charging commercially for us is like drinking out at bars/clubs.

Way cheaper to drink at home. But quit that 15+ years ago myself.

But some folks live apts, or condos where a non commercial option do not exist too.

[bikinchris]

PLUS that power plant burning coal is outside of town, not polluting urban air. If you had ever been at bus duty with 20+ diesel school buses idling at once upwind, you would be convinced that instead of his pickup truck or his 18 wheeler, Musk would have been much better off engineering a replacement for the city bus and school bus first.
Asthmatic students would certainly appreciate it.

[paredown]

Originally Posted by MikeD

While EVs are more efficient than ICE vehicles, that ignores the inefficiencies of power generation, which mostly comes from natural gas and coal.

"Fossil fuels are the largest sources of energy for electricity generation
Natural gas was the largest source—about 38%—of U.S. electricity generation in 2021. Natural gas is used in steam turbines and gas turbines to generate electricity.

Coal was the second-largest energy source for U.S. electricity generation in 2021—about 22%. Nearly all coal-fired power plants use steam turbines. A few coal-fired power plants convert coal to a gas for use in a gas turbine to generate electricity."

Steam and gas turbines are not efficient. Nat gas and coal has to be drilled/mined and transported.

Most people charge their cars at night when the electric rates are cheaper and they are not using the vehicle. Solar power doesn't work at night.

A hybrid vehicle, like the Toyota Prius compares well against an EV when you look beyond just the efficiency of the vehicle and see the big picture. Plus, taking a long trip in one is a lot more practical.

I just read an article that EVs are most likely to be totaled when involved in an accident making insurance rates higher for them.

I think this got quoted above by Dave (his wife is part of the Yale team cited):
https://www.motortrend.com/features/...being-lied-to/

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by robt57

But some folks live apts, or condos where a non commercial option do not exist too.

That will come eventually, I'm sure of it, especially in places with garages.

On my recent road trip my friends and I were able to take advantage of free Level 2 AC charging at the hotel we stayed at. I'll be looking at this brand in the future.

Home2Suites by Hilton seems to have this on their plate and both places I stayed at had multiple chargers in decent places in their parking lots. They didn't block other guests and I started the next day with a high state of charge.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

But for many, myself included, an EV for a daily driver gives a lower operating cost, better efficiency, and an improved driving experience.

Hey Dave,

I know you are a big AutoX fan. Do you see yourself sometime in the future building an e-car to auto cross with?

My initial thought is you could build a pretty well handling car by keeping all the weight in the batteries very low in the car and take advantage of gobs of torque.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by benb

I've definitely been attracted to EVs as the shiny new item but I'm sitting tight.

By the time my Subaru actually dies the money I've put away instead of buying an EV will probably have earned enough dividends to buy the new car.

EVs ought to be a lot better in 5 years or more, and it's definitely wasteful to replace cars often.

All these new cars are so luxury focused too. MTB and Ski/Snowboard is really rough on the interior of my car, I don't really need to be trashing a luxury car.

I bought a Kia EV6 with the idea of putting bikes and skis and baords and bags of potting soil in the back. Practically speaking it's a tall wagon or low SUV and there's lots of room on the back. I'm tall so the driver's seat is all the way back and my bikes are big and mine fit in the back with both wheels on.

I bought a plastic floor liner and rear seat back protector and they do a great job of making it feel a bit more utilitarian in back.

The car nicer than most I've owned in the past but it might push it to call it "luxurious"...but it sure is nice to drive.

dave