OT: Ray, how's your Bitcoin investment going?

[54ny77]

Wait, I thought NFT was chain lube? Am I on the wrong forum?

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by seanile

Does anyone else read this thread title in Harold Ramis's voice?

Yes, and I hear all the posts pitching the advantages of cryptocurrencies in Dan Ackroyd’s voice.

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by Michael D

I would be inclined to try to learn something from you but how can you say bitcoin is a scam? I feel like there’s a big gap between older and younger generations about how they view cryptocurrency. Personally I think regulation defeats the point, and gamification of the currency (misuse) is ruining its potential.

Lastly cryptocurrency is new in finance. There’s never been anything exactly like it. It’s called technology.

Finance is loaded with technology. Finance is always looking for an edge to make it cheaper and easier to transact and more transparent. Bitcoin does the exact opposite. In my opinion, it is a step backwards in finance.

What is the use case that bitcoin improves upon existing solutions? Normally in fintech, the technology improves productivity and reduces cost. You can do the same thing as before maybe even better, but cheaper. Bitcoin is the opposite. It is probably the most expensive asset to transact in right now and that includes physical gold.

If I recall, the whole point of bitcoin was to be a decentralized network which could not be controlled. I think the reality of bitcoin and crypto in general, is it is heavily centralized and a few large players have huge influence. You can say the samething about Goldman and JP Morgan. But these entities are regulated and do have rules to follow. They may still **** you a little, but crypto will **** you alot.

Bitcoin by itself is not a scam, but the ecosystem around cryptocurrencies are. So even if Bitcoin is not the fraud, it's valuation is being decided by fraud. As I have said before, Stablecoins are just another variation of free-banking in the US pre-Civil war when any bank could issue scrip supposedly backed by assets. Most, not all, of these were frauds.

Some very basic regulation is very necessary. Something as simple as having truly segregated client accounts, front running, trading against the client, wash trades, bucket shops and even something as simple as a AUDIT is there to keep the insiders from taking advantage and ripping off outsiders.

Tether has no AUDIT. They keep on coming up with excuses why they cannot audit. If that isn't a red flag, I don't know what is. All these stablecoins and defi are a form of shadow banking which leads to huge amounts of leverage. If I borrow a million dollars, I am not a millionaire. That is a bit of what crypto is like. We saw how Archegos used massive leverage last year, lied to counterparties and blew up in stocks. Bill Hwang who was running archegos will go to jail. His stocks collapsed 90%. How much leverage is in crypto via stablecoins and other scams? No one knows.

People in finance are always trying to take the money and run. Crypto is no difference. You say it is a technology, but the technology is controlled by people and human behavior has not changed.

Regulation is a necessary evil. The question is how much regulation, no regulation will always be a unmitigated disaster. It always has in financial markets.

So just being 'NEW' doesn't mean anything for Bitcoin. If bitcoin is a new application in finance, it will need to have many of the same regulations as current financial markets. Technology can change, but human nature doesn't. See people and social media for details.

[Michael D]

Originally Posted by verticaldoug

Finance is loaded with technology. Finance is always looking for an edge to make it cheaper and easier to transact and more transparent. Bitcoin does the exact opposite. In my opinion, it is a step backwards in finance.

What is the use case that bitcoin improves upon existing solutions? Normally in fintech, the technology improves productivity and reduces cost. You can do the same thing as before maybe even better, but cheaper. Bitcoin is the opposite. It is probably the most expensive asset to transact in right now and that includes physical gold.

If I recall, the whole point of bitcoin was to be a decentralized network which could not be controlled. I think the reality of bitcoin and crypto in general, is it is heavily centralized and a few large players have huge influence. You can say the samething about Goldman and JP Morgan. But these entities are regulated and do have rules to follow. They may still **** you a little, but crypto will **** you alot.

Bitcoin by itself is not a scam, but the ecosystem around cryptocurrencies are. So even if Bitcoin is not the fraud, it's valuation is being decided by fraud. As I have said before, Stablecoins are just another variation of free-banking in the US pre-Civil war when any bank could issue scrip supposedly backed by assets. Most, not all, of these were frauds.

Some very basic regulation is very necessary. Something as simple as having truly segregated client accounts, front running, trading against the client, wash trades, bucket shops and even something as simple as a AUDIT is there to keep the insiders from taking advantage and ripping off outsiders.

Tether has no AUDIT. They keep on coming up with excuses why they cannot audit. If that isn't a red flag, I don't know what is. All these stablecoins and defi are a form of shadow banking which leads to huge amounts of leverage. If I borrow a million dollars, I am not a millionaire. That is a bit of what crypto is like. We saw how Archegos used massive leverage last year, lied to counterparties and blew up in stocks. Bill Hwang who was running archegos will go to jail. His stocks collapsed 90%. How much leverage is in crypto via stablecoins and other scams? No one knows.

People in finance are always trying to take the money and run. Crypto is no difference. You say it is a technology, but the technology is controlled by people and human behavior has not changed.

Regulation is a necessary evil. The question is how much regulation, no regulation will always be a unmitigated disaster. It always has in financial markets.

So just being 'NEW' doesn't mean anything for Bitcoin. If bitcoin is a new application in finance, it will need to have many of the same regulations as current financial markets. Technology can change, but human nature doesn't. See people and social media for details.

Thanks for this post, you definitely make some great points.

[Louis]

You just have to love this cryto stuff:

A story in the NYT about Tether: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/17/t...smid=url-share

Call me old-fashioned, but this is not how I think one builds a stable economy.

Even by crypto’s often-surreal standards, Tether has a peculiar history. The company was founded in 2014 by Brock Pierce, a cryptocurrency evangelist who, as a child actor, starred in the “Mighty Ducks” movies. He and his partner, Reeve Collins, later handed control of the firm to a former plastic surgeon named Giancarlo Devasini, who has stored some of Tether’s assets in a bank in the Bahamas run by one of the creators of the “Inspector Gadget” cartoon.

Tether has grown rapidly. Last year, it issued roughly 50 billion stablecoins, more than tripling the worldwide supply. “If we have to redeem till the last cent, we can do it,” Mr. Ardoino said in the interview.

The company is operated by about 50 employees in Europe, Asia and Latin America. Its chief executive, JL van der Velde, is a Dutch businessman whose LinkedIn profile suggests he is based in Hong Kong; the company declined to confirm his location. He and Mr. Devasini, the chief operating officer, rarely speak publicly. Tether’s public face is Mr. Ardoino, who describes his colleagues as “normal people” amazed by the company’s growth.

“They didn’t think initially that it would maybe go so big,” Mr. Ardoino said. “They weren’t prepared to be public persons. There’s nothing bad about it.”

[paredown]

I don' t know much about Bitcoin (or other block chain pseudo currencies)--but I have been enjoying this website--a young (woman) programmer named Molly White, who posts links and brief discussions to the various debacles and scams. I think she knows the biz (and has written more serious pieces elsewhere):

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

[Tony T]

Bitcoin dips below 18k

“SAN FRANCISCO — The price of Bitcoin fell below $20,000 for the first time since November 2020 on Saturday, amid a broader market meltdown driven by rising interest rates, inflation and economic uncertainty spurred by the war in Ukraine.

The plunge — it sank below $19,000 at one point Saturday — took place over several months for Bitcoin, the most popular cryptocurrency. Its fall was accelerated in recent weeks by the collapse of two major cryptocurrency projects, Terra-Luna and Celsius, while sowing doubts about the stability of the overall cryptocurrency market. Bitcoin has erased some $900 billion of value since its peak in November.”

More: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/18/t...oin-20000.html

[rice rocket]

Getting spicy.

Did MicroStrategy dump? They had the most by a lot iirc, followed by Tesla.

[Louis]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

followed by Tesla.

Gee, that's a darn shame...

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by Louis

Gee, that's a darn shame...

Probably did it for the memes

[redir]

Great opportunity to get into crypto investment. And if you are down it's also a good buying opportunity to make gains on the way up to where you were.

What I recently learned is that traditionally the bottom has been found when inflation reaches it's peak. So the bottom of BTC may not yet be here. I'm waiting it out. You can't go wrong buying in at 20k though. You will probably double that investment in year, possibly sooner. But I still think BTC could hit 15k or lower.

General rules of crypto apply, do NOT ever invest with money you need. If you can't afford cloths then you don't belong in the crypto space. But if you can afford to take a risk the reward potential are there.

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by redir

Great opportunity to get into crypto investment. And if you are down it's also a good buying opportunity to make gains on the way up to where you were.

What I recently learned is that traditionally the bottom has been found when inflation reaches it's peak. So the bottom of BTC may not yet be here. I'm waiting it out. You can't go wrong buying in at 20k though. You will probably double that investment in year, possibly sooner. But I still think BTC could hit 15k or lower.

General rules of crypto apply, do NOT ever invest with money you need. If you can't afford cloths then you don't belong in the crypto space. But if you can afford to take a risk the reward potential are there.

^ Definitely someone who advised buying Worldcom stock back in July 2000.

Buying the dip can be a smart approach to specific stock buying if the stock has reason to be worth more than it currently is.
Pure speculation is not a valid investment strategy. Pure speculation may pay off, but that doesnt mean its smart.

As for your general rule of crypto investing, that is no different from any other investing. You shouldnt invest with money you need. That goes for Apple, Ford, BTC, or anything else.

[Michael D]

Originally Posted by redir

Great opportunity to get into crypto investment. And if you are down it's also a good buying opportunity to make gains on the way up to where you were.

What I recently learned is that traditionally the bottom has been found when inflation reaches it's peak. So the bottom of BTC may not yet be here. I'm waiting it out. You can't go wrong buying in at 20k though. You will probably double that investment in year, possibly sooner. But I still think BTC could hit 15k or lower.

General rules of crypto apply, do NOT ever invest with money you need. If you can't afford cloths then you don't belong in the crypto space. But if you can afford to take a risk the reward potential are there.

You're 100% right. It might dip a bit more but it's gonna go back up.

Buy when there's blood in the streets (everyone crying about it being over, and told ya soers suddenly come out of the woodwork en masse acting like they knew all along).

Usual response to the nay sayers: "then short it"

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Michael D

You're 100% right. It might dip a bit more but it's gonna go back up.

Buy when there's blood in the streets (everyone crying about it being over, and told ya soers suddenly come out of the woodwork en masse acting like they knew all along).

Usual response to the nay sayers: "then short it"

Ah, the Greater Fools Theory in action:

In finance, the greater fool theory suggests that one can sometimes make money through the purchase of overvalued assets — items with a purchase price drastically exceeding the intrinsic value — if those assets can later be resold at an even higher price.

In this context, one "fool" might pay for an overpriced asset, hoping that he can sell it to an even "greater fool" and make a profit. This only works as long as there are enough new "greater fools" willing to pay higher and higher prices for the asset. Eventually, investors can no longer deny that the price is out of touch with reality, at which point a sell-off can cause the price to drop significantly until it is closer to its fair value, which in some cases could be zero.[1][2][3][4]

[Michael D]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Ah, the Greater Fools Theory in action:

Oh the hubris to actually think everyone that you disagree with is a fool.