OT - Dow plunges 1,175 - worst point decline in history

[Ozz]

Originally Posted by 93svt96

Assembled here does not mean as much as profits going to a foreign business.

It might mean more because of the several thousand job "assembled" here creates...

[echappist]

Originally Posted by 93svt96

I am sure Toyota is building here for their benefit not for the American worker .

it's a moot point. neither is GM or Ford. By that token, so are companies that close union shops and move to places where unionization is difficult. Still American companies with American workers, but let's not pretend that workers receive as much.

is Chrysler an American company? Serious question

also, name one employer operating in so-called "right-to-work" states, where said employer actually wants to see some sort of an union-like structure. hint, it ain't American
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this is all a tangent to movements of the market, btw

[93svt96]

Originally Posted by echappist

it's a moot point. neither is GM or Ford. By that token, so are companies that close union shops and move to places where unionization is difficult. Still American companies with American workers, but let's not pretend that workers receive as much.

is Chrysler an American company? Serious question

also, name one employer operating in so-called "right-to-work" states, where said employer actually wants to see some sort of an union-like structure. hint, it ain't American
-------------------------------------------

this is all a tangent to movements of the market, btw

Ok, I'll shut up. I think mopar is owned by Fiat.

[Mzilliox]

wow, this made is USA thing brings a lot of ignorance forward. Buy from good companies, in this global world who cares if they are american...
how many American companies are owned by americans...
Is it better to uport a corporation, or the workers of the corporation...
is it better to buy from a foreign company who gives back to their community and does things well... or a homegrown company of gross polluters
why bother supporting some stranger in Texas whos values dont come close to my own... just because he or she is also "American".

makes no sense to me.

[Ozz]

Originally Posted by Mzilliox

wow, this made is USA thing brings a lot of ignorance forward. Buy from good companies, in this global world who cares if they are american... ...makes no sense to me.

A real subtle concept in economics is "comparative advantage"....essentially says make what you are good at making and import what other countries are good at making....this provides economic advantage to both countries.

unfortunately for labor in the US, other countries are good at manufacturing and we are good at IP. Lots of exceptions for specific items of course.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

[echappist]

And to bring it back on point

Included in everyone's S&P 500 holdings are stocks of Altria and Phillip Morris. Most of us, ergo, are shareholders of those companies, regardless of our views on tobacco usage.

One, of course, may pick and choose companies whose publicly stated values align with that of one's own, but without fundamental understanding of the company's financials, it may not make much business sense, not to mention an increased exposure to volatility while you are at it.

This probably sounds like cognitive dissonance, but there's a point where philosophizing ends and where real life begins. To that end, as much as I don't like the various (legal) tax dodging schemes employed and all things tobacco, I invest in index funds tracking the S&P. When it comes to personal consumer choices, I'll be shying away from companies I don't like. Though when it comes to picking between Apple and Android, neither is that palatable. Best to use my device until it's full-on knackered and then buy used...

Now, if one has a sizeable pension or is independently wealthy, one may choose to purchase whatever assets s/he deemed acceptable, but for anyone depending on equity returns, it's far too academic.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by echappist

And to bring it back on point

Included in everyone's S&P 500 holdings are stocks of Altria and Phillip Morris. Most of us, ergo, are shareholders of those companies, regardless of our views on tobacco usage.

One, of course, may pick and choose companies whose publicly stated values align with that of one's own, but without fundamental understanding of the company's financials, it may not make much business sense, not to mention an increased exposure to volatility while you are at it.

This probably sounds like cognitive dissonance, but there's a point where philosophizing ends and where real life begins. To that end, as much as I don't like the various (legal) tax dodging schemes employed and all things tobacco, I invest in index funds tracking the S&P. When it comes to personal consumer choices, I'll be shying away from companies I don't like. Though when it comes to picking between Apple and Android, neither is that palatable. Best to use my device until it's full-on knackered and then buy used...

Now, if one has a sizeable pension or is independently wealthy, one may choose to purchase whatever assets s/he deemed acceptable, but for anyone depending on equity returns, it's far too academic.

If a person chooses stocks or purchases based on beliefs, so be it IMO. But don't lose sight that it will have zero effect on the entities not patronized.

It reminds me of the guy that wanted to buy a Trek bike but was conflicted by his loyalty to Lemond. What's principle to one can be seen as living in your head by another. It's just bikes and there are more deserving issues to allocate that attention. There isn't a city in the nation that doesn't have someone who's hungry in it.

Bless the ones with the time and the care to chase distant demons. I play in a dirty pond and pull out what I can from it, knowing that the parsing is more of an intellectual exercise than a move that makes a difference to anyone other than the parser.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by Burnette

If a person chooses stocks or purchases based on beliefs, so be it IMO. But don't lose sight that it will have zero effect on the entities not patronized.

It reminds me of the guy that wanted to buy a Trek bike but was conflicted by his loyalty to Lemond. What's principle to one can be seen as living in your head by another. It's just bikes and there are more deserving issues to allocate that attention. There isn't a city in the nation that doesn't have someone who's hungry in it.

Bless the ones with the time and the care to chase distant demons. I play in a dirty pond and pull out what I can from it, knowing that the parsing is more of an intellectual exercise than a move that makes a difference to anyone other than the parser.

that was me, btw

and i'll be the first to admit it's a first world problem of the first order

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by echappist

that was me, btw

and i'll be the first to admit it's a first world problem of the first order

Hey, I didn't put that together, Ha! But yeah, we all can overthink a thing at times. And it shows you have a good heart, so I like and respect that.

But the biggest impact we can make is right outside of our front doors, to help or even save another will always trump changing buying habits in big markets.

Back on topic, as always it's interesting to see the talking heads on TV speak at opposite ends of what's going to happen to the market in 2019. For the US the only saving grace for us is that China and Europe are in much more turmoil at the moment, to the point that by comparison we are better positioned to pull out of the funk. Go 'Merica.

[veloduffer]

Originally Posted by Burnette

If a person chooses stocks or purchases based on beliefs, so be it IMO. But don't lose sight that it will have zero effect on the entities not patronized.

That may not be true as the ESG-sustainability movement is rapidly influencing asset management and all major corporations. Companies with poor ESG scorecards may be shunned by the big institutional investors, like pension funds, etc. And institutional shareholders are questioning the management of firms about their sustainability actions.

Of course, there's cases of "greenwashing", too. The issues with ESG is that there are no methodologies-measurements for baselines and performance. Bono (of U2 band) and hedge fund TPG announced a venture to develop analytics on ESG.

It's a step in the right direction.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by veloduffer

That may not be true as the ESG-sustainability movement is rapidly influencing asset management and all major corporations. Companies with poor ESG scorecards may be shunned by the big institutional investors, like pension funds, etc. And institutional shareholders are questioning the management of firms about their sustainability actions.

Of course, there's cases of "greenwashing", too. The issues with ESG is that there are no methodologies-measurements for baselines and performance. Bono (of U2 band) and hedge fund TPG announced a venture to develop analytics on ESG.

It's a step in the right direction.

There's wishful thinking, then there's reality. It is and always be about money and what gives the best returns wins, worldwide and till the end of time.

[veloduffer]

Originally Posted by Burnette

There's wishful thinking, then there's reality. It is and always be about money and what gives the best returns wins, worldwide and till the end of time.

I know history shows that money trumps all in capitalism, but the ESG movement is very real. I work for one of the largest global insurance firms and we manage $1 trillion in assets. ESG is on the forefront of all finance currently - environmental, impact investing, digitalization, income inequality, etc.

Research firms are starting develop ESG scorecards to guide institutional investors, like me. Since we buy bonds, we have a different role than equity investors in forcing changes (referendums, management change). I am part of a new task force for the insurance industry on how to address ESG.

For firms, having a good ESG score not only attracts capital but talent. New graduates, like my kid and his classmates, want to work for companies they feel have a positive change. Tesla is a prime example of attracting young new talent. Good corporate citizenship is also a big part of our recruiting at colleges.

It's easier to push these initiatives during a relatively good business cycle; it'll be more challenging during a downturn.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by veloduffer

I know history shows that money trumps all in capitalism, but the ESG movement is very real. I work for one of the largest global insurance firms and we manage $1 trillion in assets. ESG is on the forefront of all finance currently - environmental, impact investing, digitalization, income inequality, etc.

Research firms are starting develop ESG scorecards to guide institutional investors, like me. Since we buy bonds, we have a different role than equity investors in forcing changes (referendums, management change). I am part of a new task force for the insurance industry on how to address ESG.

For firms, having a good ESG score not only attracts capital but talent. New graduates, like my kid and his classmates, want to work for companies they feel have a positive change. Tesla is a prime example of attracting young new talent. Good corporate citizenship is also a big part of our recruiting at colleges.

It's easier to push these initiatives during a relatively good business cycle; it'll be more challenging during a downturn.

The market is where the world goes to gamble and hoping that the players will show good will, just because, is again, wishful thinking. You're looking at the wrong place for scruples.

Proof of what I post is on display every day. Check back in December 2019 and you'll see nothing has changed. It's about money and the market isn't a church.

[froze]

Originally Posted by 93svt96

I am sure Toyota is building here for their benefit not for the American worker .

Of course, it's the same reason a lot of American companies build stuff in China because it benefits American companies.

No matter how you want to distort it I seriously doubt you would want Toyota to shut down all their manufacturing plants in American and lay off everyone would you? So don't start shouting nonsense off about how it's not benefiting American employees as well as the taxes those employees pay that go into the government for various services, not to mention all the goods and services that those employees buy that pump up the economy. So now do you see how ignorant you're response was?

[marciero]

Originally Posted by Burnette

The market is where the world goes to gamble and hoping that the players will show good will, just because, is again, wishful thinking. You're looking at the wrong place for scruples.

Proof of what I post is on display every day. Check back in December 2019 and you'll see nothing has changed. It's about money and the market isn't a church.

Many companies are recognizing that socially and environmentally ethical practices make good business sense, for any number of reasons, and that failing to address them will negatively affect the bottom the line.