"Off the shelf" 650B Road Frames (Low Trail Content)

[palincss]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

NOT trying to be argumentative but there are very large volume tires out there that are 700c. The extreme are some low knob, 29er tires. Is the comfort, control, RR differences that great?...because 650b is rolling along in MTBs, but tire choices, frame/fork choices, for 650b road seems teeny by comparison, in spite of 650b road 'idea' being around for a lot longer.

There are large volume 700C tires. Most of them are cheap hybrid tires that roll like crap. All of them are significantly larger in outside diameter than a 650B of the same, or even much larger width. That not only makes a difference in handling feel, but also can create problems for midsize and smaller frames. Adding wide fenders makes the problems even worse.

Most important, there are no wide 700C tires that can begin to compare with the best 650B tires like the Grand Bois Hetre.

[palincss]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Is it the tire or the size of tire?

I DO see in 32mm width, Hetre has 650b and 700c tires....

Yes to both. And 32mm is not a wide tire. Oh, it may be in comparison to a 23mm, but as wide tires go it's not.

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Seems like a more aggressive tread would be better for dirt roads, IMHO. In spite of the nimbleness give away.

Knobs are fine for loose stuff. Around here (Northern Virginia) first off, you typically can't do a dirt road ride of any length without spending substantial time on pavement to connect the routes, so you get the best ride from a setup that shines on both dirt and pavement. The Hetre definitely does that. Then, the unpaved roads themselves: here, you have an iron hard baked clay base with a thin layer of small size gravel on top. There's not enough loose for knobs to dig in; if you want to dig into those roads you'd better bring a pickaxe. So aggressive tread gives you nothing on the dirt roads and hurts you big time on the chipseal.

[palincss]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Nope. I know Mike Cone, he owns Rene Herse, the MO outfit up in north Boulder. He's been selling 650b Rene's for a while, trying to resurrect the French Rando type bicycle.

Just looking for insight here...not going to have any 650b on the floor, unless Richard at Waterford offers one, which I doubt. "Seems" like a trend to me based on one tire brand. Not sure what it offers over a well made 700c touring/all 'rounder rig.

Well, if you know Mike Kone then just for fun why don't you ask to borrow a 650B Boulder Randonneur and go find out.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by palincss

Well, if you know Mike Kone then just for fun why don't you ask to borrow a 650B Boulder Randonneur and go find out.

I may but I doubt a little ride on one of these will really tell me anything. Don't think it will mean I'll have one on the floor, market still really small. The bike doesn't really match what my riding is now,, what I do and where I ride and what it will be in the forseeable future. I will probably have a 650b MTB on the floor. Think that has a big future.

I was looking for insight about 650b, real kinda measurable advantages(as 'measurable as anything else in 'bike'), from those who have a lot of experience
on those vs 700c all 'rounder's.

I ride lots of bicycles, tires, tubeless, not, big tires, small tires, tourers, all arounders, randos(even build a couple-not 650b tho), cross rigs, MTBs, 29ers, 26ers, full squish, hardtail, single speed, fixies.... race bikes, etc, etc. None are really all that different w/i the 'class'.

I think Mike's 650b foray is related to his desire to resurrect the Rene Herse, French rando, 650b 'mystique'. I know he has a great interest in and lots of knowledge of, French bicycle history.

[sc53]

I discovered Mike's shop while searching for some kind of rear bag support for my small frame bikes. He sells some really cool "retro" type bike parts. I bought a Nitto bag support that, unlike the Carradice Bagman I have, does not require saddle rail space to bolt it on to (it just slips around your seat stays so can be swapped between bikes really easily, no bolts), and is much smaller so it fits underneath my smallish saddlebag (the Carradice Barley) much better than the enormous Bagman (which is sized for a really large saddlebag; I need to sell it).
I also bought some Michelin big-tire tubes (hard to find at other online vendors) for 700 x 32-37 tires, a Nitto seatpost, and some Berthoud bar cap plugs. Great shop!

[559Rando]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I may but I doubt a little ride on one of these will really tell me anything. Don't think it will mean I'll have one on the floor, market still really small. The bike doesn't really match what my riding is now,, what I do and where I ride and what it will be in the forseeable future. I will probably have a 650b MTB on the floor. Think that has a big future.

- I think a "little ride" will tell you a lot, actually. I don't mean that to sound snippy. I just mean to say, "try it, you'll like it."

- I don't think there is a 650B road bike you could even put on the floor, except maybe the VO Polyvalent, Soma San Marcos and smallest Rawland Nordavinden. I think that's it. Everything else is custom/semi custom/only available direct. For example, I think Kone is the only seller of the Boulder. It's his brand. Kogswell is gone, Rawland is out of 650B frames at the moment, (except the smallest Nordavinden), etc. It's niche, though I'd love to see them on the floor of shops.

- As for the 650B road bike not fitting your needs, I think you'll be surprised in how they excell at so many things. Again, I believe a little ride should be very telling.

- I think a good number of mtb technology bees polinate the road technology flowers. I don't have a crystal ball, but I won't be surprised when there's more 650B road options

[palincss]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I may but I doubt a little ride on one of these will really tell me anything. Don't think it will mean I'll have one on the floor, market still really small. The bike doesn't really match what my riding is now,, what I do and where I ride and what it will be in the forseeable future. I will probably have a 650b MTB on the floor. Think that has a big future.

I was looking for insight about 650b, real kinda measurable advantages(as 'measurable as anything else in 'bike'), from those who have a lot of experience on those vs 700c all 'rounder's.

And I'm suggesting if you try one you will experience those advantages for yourself, without having to rely on me conveying my experiences to you. As for measurable advantages,

- a 42mm tire will fit in a 54 cm frame with fenders, now go try that with your 700C
- 42mm @ 50 psi turns chipseal into a smooth road

I'm not sure how you go about "measuring" that to your satisfaction. But if you're interested, go try one and I think you'll understand. If you want to remain closed-minded, on the other hand, don't bother.

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I think Mike's 650b foray is related to his desire to resurrect the Rene Herse, French rando, 650b 'mystique'. I know he has a great interest in and lots of knowledge of, French bicycle history.

Rene Herse Bicycles is definitely the former. Boulder, not so much. Boulder isn't replicating mystique, it's a modern functional solution to a riding situation.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by palincss

And I'm suggesting if you try one you will experience those advantages for yourself, without having to rely on me conveying my experiences to you. As for measurable advantages,

- a 42mm tire will fit in a 54 cm frame with fenders, now go try that with your 700C
- 42mm @ 50 psi turns chipseal into a smooth road

I'm not sure how you go about "measuring" that to your satisfaction. But if you're interested, go try one and I think you'll understand. If you want to remain closed-minded, on the other hand, don't bother.



Rene Herse Bicycles is definitely the former. Boulder, not so much. Boulder isn't replicating mystique, it's a modern functional solution to a riding situation.

Gee, that was pleasent, I was asking for objective info, guess that, and any other 'questions' makes me closed minded. Gonna tap outta this one, a 'wee' bit to 'evangelical' for me.

Gonna pass on the test ride also, going to stay close minded, and I use 25c tires, even on chip seal. At 95 psi, pretty smooth on my Moots.

[559Rando]

Tater, given your proximity to Kone, please take a test ride! You may never buy a 650B road frame but you'll see firsthand what the hype is about.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by 559Rando

Tater, given your proximity to Kone, please take a test ride! You may never buy a 650B road frame but you'll see firsthand what the hype is about.

Pass

[palincss]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Gee, that was pleasent, I was asking for objective info, guess that, and any other 'questions' makes me closed minded. Gonna tap outta this one, a 'wee' bit to 'evangelical' for me.

No, your obvious unwillingness to even try a test ride makes you closed minded.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by palincss

No, your obvious unwillingness to even try a test ride makes you closed minded.

"I may but I doubt a little ride on one of these will really tell me anything."

May not-I'm out.

[svelocity]

Taking a cue from another board member. A haiku on 650b

a wheel and tire size
nothing magical to it
works for some not all

[fourflys]

Let's drop it down a notch or two... oldPotatoe can choose or not to ride a 650b... In the end who cares if Peter rides one? Peter has more miles on different machines than most, so if he chooses not to try something different so be it... that's the beauty of so many choices...

[GRAVELBIKE]

I tried the 650B/low-trail thing, and it was OK. Not great, but not bad. In the end, I didn't like the bike enough to want to keep it. I found that I was more at ease with different geometry, and more robust tubing.

As far as 650B wheels, I can take them or leave them. Since I ride a 56-57cm frame, (fat tire) clearance is less of an issue for me than someone who rides a smaller frame. I did a lot of switching back and forth between 650Bx38 and 700Cx32/35 bikes, and found that I preferred the latter.