OT: Tesla Model 3

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by RowanB

Shouldn't the figure of interest here be the total miles before the car (or battery pack?) is scrapped, not the distance driven by the first owner?

You can. But I doubt it will change the outcome of the calculation. The largest producer of cobalt in the world is the DRC. 1/6 of the world's nickel is produced by Norilsk Nickel in Russia which also produces 1% of the world sulphur.

And if you are driving a Tesla in China, your electricity is coming from coal. . .

The act of consumption is by it's nature non-green.

[EDS]

Originally Posted by verticaldoug

You can. But I doubt it will change the outcome of the calculation. The largest producer of cobalt in the world is the DRC. 1/6 of the world's nickel is produced by Norilsk Nickel in Russia which also produces 1% of the world sulphur.

And if you are driving a Tesla in China, your electricity is coming from coal. . .

The act of consumption is by it's nature non-green.

In fairness, I do think Musk envisions having the home charger powered by solar (obviously he has an interest in Solar City so that tie in is not purely altruistic).

The long term holding costs of the Tesla are what I do not know (i.e., is this a vehicle I could own for a decade or more). I know the studies out on the degradation of the battery in the Model S are not terrible (though obviously the range will decline) but I don't know about the other systems.

[livingminimal]

This is good.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

[Anarchist]

While these cars are interesting to an extent the continued sale of these things as "green" in any way is laughable.

The bigger problem, however, is that one of these would be completely incapable of meeting my driving needs when at least twice a week I have a drive that is over 400 kms.

Part way there I would be forced to pull over and plug the car in so I could get to the destination. Wonderful.

I can buy a fully loaded, every option possible, Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic for $25,000 with a much lower total cost of ownership. Of course they wouldn't look "cool" or impress the neighbours.

[AngryScientist]

[rwsaunders]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

Poo-pooing of Tesla is comical. Is it perfect? Nope. But someone has to come first, and Fortune favors the bold. In 20 years we will be able to look back and say, yeah, the first electric car was killed off, but this time period will be seen as an absolute turning point in getting us off of ����ing fossil fuels.

From the DOE's 2015 Annual Energy Outlook report (see below)...it's going to be a while, when a 19-year payback period is projected for an all electric vehicle. The last that I looked, coal is a fossil fuel too and it's burned to generate the electricity that powers the electric vehicles. Yes, alternative energy resources are making headway and yes, world wide economics influences many production and consumption factors, but to think that we will eliminate the need for fossil fuels in their entirety is without merit.

In 2040, compared with gasoline vehicles, fuel cost savings would be $227/year for an electric-gasoline hybrid, with a “payback period” of approximately 13 years for recovery of the difference in vehicle purchase price compared with a conventional gasoline vehicle; $247/year for a PHEV10, with a 27-year payback period; $271/year for a PHEV40, with a 46-year payback period; and $469/year for a 100% electric drive vehicle, with a 19-year payback period. These results are based on the following assumptions for each vehicle type: 12,000 miles traveled per year; average motor gasoline price of $3.90 per gallon; average electricity price of $0.12 per kilowatthour; and 0% discount rate. For plug-in hybrids it is assumed that a hybrid electric 10 (PHEV10) will use electric drive power for 21% of total miles traveled, and a hybrid electric 40 (PHEV40) for 58% of total miles traveled. The assumed vehicle purchase prices do not reflect national or local tax incentives.

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by rwsaunders

From the DOE's 2015 Annual Energy Outlook report (see below)...it's going to be a while, when a 19-year payback period is projected for an all electric vehicle. The last that I looked, coal is a fossil fuel too and it's burned to generate the electricity that powers the electric vehicles. Yes, alternative energy resources are making headway and yes, world wide economics influences many production and consumption factors, but to think that we will eliminate the need for fossil fuels in their entirety is without merit.

In 2040, compared with gasoline vehicles, fuel cost savings would be $227/year for an electric-gasoline hybrid, with a “payback period” of approximately 13 years for recovery of the difference in vehicle purchase price compared with a conventional gasoline vehicle; $247/year for a PHEV10, with a 27-year payback period; $271/year for a PHEV40, with a 46-year payback period; and $469/year for a 100% electric drive vehicle, with a 19-year payback period. These results are based on the following assumptions for each vehicle type: 12,000 miles traveled per year; average motor gasoline price of $3.90 per gallon; average electricity price of $0.12 per kilowatthour; and 0% discount rate. For plug-in hybrids it is assumed that a hybrid electric 10 (PHEV10) will use electric drive power for 21% of total miles traveled, and a hybrid electric 40 (PHEV40) for 58% of total miles traveled. The assumed vehicle purchase prices do not reflect national or local tax incentives.

Unless I'm misunderstanding (ive been up since 2am)
you've. completely. missed. my. point.
you have to push invention.
you have to nudge ingenuity.
Tesla does this in spades. More than anything else has.

(also, I'll cover the simplistic argument and say that the solar panels on my roof will cover the cost to plug in and charge my car, as part of my upcoming deal with Solar City)

[mistermo]

^^ Sometimes you do things that cost a little more, because they are the right things to do. I pay extra for my electric bill to ensure that it's sourced from clean, renewable sources. My religious bro in law, who pays 10% of his income to his church, once mocked me. I told him that it was my tithing, and that the environment is my equivalent of his church. Funny how nobody ever calcs a payback for those types of things.

And one of my primary reasons is to give the middle finger solute to oil producing nations that aren't the US. Someone please calc the value of less dependence on Mid East oil.

Mock away...

[peanutgallery]

At least your family members can now buy you a practical gift. Extension cords

[bbobway]

I'm impressed with what Tesla has accomplished. Building a competitive car is a huge undertaking. If I had a garage to charge it in I would buy one.

As a city dweller who parks on the street, I will be waiting until the charging station network improves. It will happen. When gasoline engines were new locating fuel must have been a challenge!

[Ciavete]

From Union of Concerned Scientists (full link:http://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-neale...missions-953):

In other words, the extra emissions associated with electric vehicle production are rapidly negated by reduced emissions from driving. Comparing an average midsize midrange BEV with an average midsize gasoline-powered car, it takes just 4,900 miles of driving to “pay back”—i.e., offset—the extra global warming emissions from producing the BEV. Similarly, it takes 19,000 miles with the full-size long-range BEV compared with a similar gasoline car. Based on typical usages of these vehicles, this amounts to about six months’ driving for the midsize midrange BEV and 16 months for the full-size long-range BEV.

Full report:http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles...s#.Vv7qrRMrL_Q

[cnighbor1]

At my local city mall in downtown walnut creek there was a very long line to put down $1000 deposit on a Tesla Model 3
If they get at least 175 miles before you start sweating than it is a winner
In a two car family one electric car makes a lot of sense to own one
and electric motors last forever plus no transmission
Your maintence costs factored in owning 25 years are nil on a yearly base

[peanutgallery]

So I did a little reading on the crapper about this car

How does Elon Musk plan to quadruple production by 2020? In 2015 tesla built 50,000 cars

By the time tesla ramps up, most car manufacturers could come out with a similar vehicle or pressure their suppliers to the point that tesla could never develop anywhere near this rate. High tech finance solutions are being applied to a domestic manufacturing problem. Be interesting to see if musk can follow thru

[Saint Vitus]

I'm not sure if anyone here saw/read this article and added any comments based upon it, but it's a very sobering read:

http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...htmlstory.html

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by bbobway

I'm impressed with what Tesla has accomplished. Building a competitive car is a huge undertaking. If I had a garage to charge it in I would buy one.



As a city dweller who parks on the street, I will be waiting until the charging station network improves. It will happen. When gasoline engines were new locating fuel must have been a challenge!

I don't think it will happen. Battery powered cars take too long to charge and have a limited range. Some form of fuel cell where you can fill up at the gas station is ideal. Hybrids are the best technology for a reasonable cost for now.