OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[dgauthier]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

(...) it's all for the same reason. It's to lower our carbon footprint (...)

+1

You'd get a "+1" from Elon too: https://greenracingnews.com/teslas-r...ms%20to%20have

[nortx-Dave]

Can anyone point me to a good reading list or on-line resource regarding pollution/global warming contributors, electricity generation, battery technology etc? I'm living in the middle of what might be considered the seat of the fossil fuel industry and the noise around me is decidedly skewed in a predictable direction.

[Davist]

Originally Posted by nortx-Dave

Can anyone point me to a good reading list or on-line resource regarding pollution/global warming contributors, electricity generation, battery technology etc? I'm living in the middle of what might be considered the seat of the fossil fuel industry and the noise around me is decidedly skewed in a predictable direction.

US EIA is a good source for a variety of info, which I've quoted earlier https://www.eia.gov/

[MikeD]

I've got solar power and it makes more power than I use. How come nobody is talking about that? Without that, an EV would make no economic sense, since electricity rates in my area are among the highest in the country.

[fa63]

I have said this before in this thread, but I will say it again. Energy analysts use what is called Levelized Cost of Electricity (LCOE) which considers the intermittency of technologies (it is called the capacity factor). It is a bit insulting to state otherwise; these people aren't stupid.

Originally Posted by Davist

renewables are not the cheapest to add due to their intermittency.. you need grid stability measures, frequency and peaking plants or grid scale storage to offset that which are conveniently left out of the calculus. This is when 1MW isn't 1MW.

[fa63]

People talk about that constantly; it is called "net metering". Unfortunately, many utilities are doing their best to try to block people from selling excess energy back to the grid at reasonable rates.

Originally Posted by MikeD

I've got solar power and it makes more power than I use. How come nobody is talking about that? Without that, an EV would make no economic sense, since electricity rates in my area are among the highest in the country.

[Davist]

Originally Posted by fa63

I have said this before in this thread, but I will say it again. Energy analysts use what is called Levelized Cost of Electricity (LCOE) which considers the intermittency of technologies (it is called the capacity factor). It is a bit insulting to state otherwise; these people aren't stupid.

Yes, and LCOE doesn't always take into account some key factors like grid level storage and demand matching (ie intermittency vs load, which is important). Peaker plants turn out to be the most expensive, and conversely are needed more than ever given solar proliferation. It's also a bit tricky to figure out if it did include storage or take this into consideration.

Not to mention, as another example, the simple fact that PGE has decided to implement blackouts rather than deal with lawsuits about fires. So- I'd advise a grain of salt approach. Net result for consumers in CA has been higher rates over the last decade or so with a decrease in service level.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by fa63

People talk about that constantly; it is called "net metering". Unfortunately, many utilities are doing their best to try to block people from selling excess energy back to the grid at reasonable rates.

Yes. California just changed their net metering rules. I'm unsure if I would install a solar system now if I fell under the new rules. I probably still would since they are raising utility rates a whopping 18% this year.

[saab2000]

I’ll be curious when large-scale energy storage has an impact on the electric grid, prices, stability, etc. Tesla, and I’m sure others, are creating electric storage batteries that are huge. They should help deal with spikes in demand. Ideally, they would charge with solar and/or wind when those resources are available.

[Davist]

Originally Posted by saab2000

I’ll be curious when large-scale energy storage has an impact on the electric grid, prices, stability, etc. Tesla, and I’m sure others, are creating electric storage batteries that are huge. They should help deal with spikes in demand. Ideally, they would charge with solar and/or wind when those resources are available.

Batteries aren't the best answer for grid level storage. Pumped hydro (as an example run pumps off solar in the day raise water to a higher elevation reservoir, then use the water flow to generate during the night) can give huge storage with days of duration. Batteries get big fast when talking about grid scale.

[fa63]

Good point. There has been talk in the energy policy circles to incorporate into LCOE integration and system costs for variable generation but we are not there yet. To be fair though, intermittency can be an issue for fossil fuel plants as well but for different reasons.

Originally Posted by Davist

Yes, and LCOE doesn't always take into account some key factors like grid level storage and demand matching (ie intermittency vs load, which is important). Peaker plants turn out to be the most expensive, and conversely are needed more than ever given solar proliferation. It's also a bit tricky to figure out if it did include storage or take this into consideration.

[dgauthier]

Originally Posted by nortx-Dave

Can anyone point me to a good reading list or on-line resource regarding pollution/global warming contributors, electricity generation, battery technology etc? I'm living in the middle of what might be considered the seat of the fossil fuel industry and the noise around me is decidedly skewed in a predictable direction.

(I almost didn't post this, as it's about EV's rather than energy infrastructure, though it does include information about EV battery technology. This thread *is* about EV's, though, so I thought others might like it...)

If you want to learn about EV's, I *love* Munroe Live. The guy runs a company in Detroit that tears down cars, trucks, airplanes, etc., analyses the technology and costs of every part, and puts it all in encyclopedia-sized books that he sells to competing manufacturers for six figures.

When the COVID lockdown hit they started putting videos up on YouTube, starting with a step-by-step teardown of a Tesla Model 3. If you have any engineering bones in your body, you will love it too. The information is for the layman, but they do things like disassembling the motors and talking about how choices in metal layering in the stators affect efficiency...

https://www.youtube.com/@MunroLive

[xcandrew]

Originally Posted by nortx-Dave

Can anyone point me to a good reading list or on-line resource regarding pollution/global warming contributors, electricity generation, battery technology etc? I'm living in the middle of what might be considered the seat of the fossil fuel industry and the noise around me is decidedly skewed in a predictable direction.

Here's a good global emissions by sector pie chart. Globally, the road transport sector is only about 12% (only 7% is passenger travel):

https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector

Here's the US chart. Road transport sector is higher in the US at 27%:

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sou...gas-emissions#

The fueleconomy.gov site can help you figure out the greenhouse emissions from vehicles. Click on the Energy and Environment tab to see the greenhouse gas emissions. For internal combustion engine cars, it can show grams per mile greenhouse gas emissions from the tailpipe. But to compare to EVs, select tailpipe+upstream GHG. You then provide your zip code because how dirty the electricity is depends on where you live.

This shows that EVs are not always better than ICE cars. For instance, the hybrid Prius (not even the plug-in version) emits 155g/mi GHG from the tailpipe plus 33g/mi from upstream sources or 188g/mi total. But where I live, a Porsche Taycan emits 240g/mi GHG. A Ford F-150 Lightning emits 290g/mi GHG. A Tesla Model X is 190g/mi, or about the same as a Prius - but probably worse in real life because of greater efficiency/mileage loss in the cold winters where I live. Don't even think about the Hummer EV as being efficient too.

Why am I comparing trucks to a Prius? Because that angle is being ignored. In the fuel crisis of the '70s, cars got much smaller. The Prius is actually spacious and has a lot of cargo room too. Now, 75% of new vehicles sold are 'light trucks' - SUVs and pickups - with only 25% being cars. The fuel economy standards for light trucks are much slacker than for cars, yet almost all of the non-commercial light trucks are being used as car substitutes. Non-commercial light trucks really should be held to the same CAFE standards as cars (which would result in much smaller SUVs and trucks on the road... more Ford Maverick hybrid types, please). The car industry doesn't want that though, because that is where all their profits come from. So yes, you can easily reduce GHG emissions by more than half without going to EVs - just promote smaller vehicles and hybrids with tweaks to government regulations that are currently encouraging light trucks to built and driven.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find...46328&id=46205

https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/l...tselling-cars/

Also, a hybrid Prius battery is only 1.3 kWh. You can build 100 hybrid Prius batteries or a single Ford Lightning long range with a 131 kWh battery. Which is better for the environment? The hybrid Prius beats the Lightning in emissions straight up in a one-to-one comparison already (at least in my zip code).

Here's a final angle. For those of us that try to drive as little as possible, commute by bike, etc., keeping your old internal combustion engine car can be much better for the environment than buying and driving a new EV.

Checking my fuel log (Fuelly) from last year, I drove 1,3xx miles and filled up 59.9 gallons of gasoline in my 1996 Subaru wagon. That means I emitted about 600 kg CO2e for the year from my gasoline usage. To produce even a small EV like the Tesla Model 3 requires 10,400kg CO2e. I didn't buy a new car, so I caused no new emissions from consumption/overconsumption. It would take 17 years driving my old Subaru at my 2022 rate to emit the amount that building a Tesla Model 3, and not even driving it a single mile, produces. Beyond 17 years, all I have to do to keep beating someone else's Tesla Model 3 in emissions in my Subaru is to drive it half as much, which I'm easily doing by only driving about 1/8th the amount of the average American. The video below shows how to do those calculations.

Persuading Americans to drive less would obviously benefit the environment. Because of the way the US is built (sprawl), most people do need to drive a lot. But for those who have arranged their life so they don't have to drive a lot, it would benefit the environment to encourage properly maintaining and keeping on the road ICE cars for those people who drive less than about 5,000 miles per year rather than consume and build large stuff, particularly large batteries in large trucks. Yes, you can save the earth choosing to drive an already existing ICE car over buying and driving an EV.

https://youtu.be/L2IKCdnzl5k

[paredown]

Originally Posted by fa63

People talk about that constantly; it is called "net metering". Unfortunately, many utilities are doing their best to try to block people from selling excess energy back to the grid at reasonable rates.

The other problem to me is that many (most? all?) home inverters are set up so that they shut off during grid outages.

I understand the issue--repair crews are concerned with power from home systems energizing lines that they are trying to repair, but this always struck me as a failure of engineering. Maybe along the way to re-conceiving how the grid functions, we can come up with an inverter system that can be left active but blocked going out so some part of the house system (including the car charger connection) can remain active?

You can can do generator installs with a physical switch that isolates the section of your house wiring that you have deemed critical--it seems like an solar panel/EV system ought to be able to do the same.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by paredown

You can can do generator installs with a physical switch that isolates the section of your house wiring that you have deemed critical--it seems like an solar panel/EV system ought to be able to do the same.

That seems like that should be an obvious feature. Odd that's it's not.