OT: Declining quality of new cars & trucks?

[benb]

Originally Posted by fmradio516

I think about this a lot, and I know ive said it before on other threads, but it is just crazy to me how BAD new cars are. My ex bought a brand new 2017 Subaru Crosstrek and after about 20k miles(and maybe even earlier?), it started consuming a over a quart of oil between 5k oil change intervals. Even had the low oil light come on the dash a couple times.

At that time, my only cars I ever owned was an 89 BMW 325i and an 04 Jeep Grand Cherokee... Both came to me with over 150k miles on em and even as they hit 200k, they MAYBE burned a quarter quart of oil in the same intervals.

It blew my mind that her basically new car was burning oil. Took it to the dealer for an oil consumption test, because I found out this is a thing with a lot of newer cars, and they said that burning a quart of oil between oil changes is completely normal. So bonkers!! After researching, they do this to make better MPG on paper. So a** backwards!! Theres gonna be a lot of clogged catalytic converters coming..

Anyway, i just bought my 3rd car ever from a friend of a friend for $1000. Its a 2010 Honda Pilot with 210k miles and i love it. Just did a ton of suspension work on it the last two weekends and am super happy with how it feels now. Mechanically the engine is very sound as well. Long live the "old" cars!!

This is one of those cases of people not realizing these new cars are often better than the old cars.

Old cars typically burned more than a quart of oil per 5k miles. Owners just didn't notice it because:

a) They had a short oil change interval
b) The car might not be able to signal on the dash that the oil level was low.
c) They never really checked the oil level themselves at the dipstick

My Subaru has burned a quart of oil about every 6500-7500 miles since it was new depending on my driving behavior. Because of this at least 50% of the time the low oil light has come on because the oil change interval was set at 7500 miles.

Some Subarus had real oil problems the last 10-15 years, but the ones they did warranty work on were more like a quart of oil every 500-1000 miles.

But they have had so many owners complain about the oil light coming on between the super long change intervals that they actually reduced the oil change interval again back around 2015 or so, after that they went back to 5,000 miles again or something. Those owners no longer complain and no longer have to occasionally open the hood and pour in oil but across millions of cars it means excessive oil has been disposed of/recycled than it would have otherwise. Dealers/Mechanics have made more money of course so they like it.

Because I have always regularly checked myself I'm fairly certain my Subaru actually burns less oil than any previous car I owned, but owners complained far more just cause of the longer maintenance intervals.

A lot of this is the PCV systems scavenging more oil fumes compared to older cars. It's not relevant to my car but forced induction makes some of these issues worse too, or at least more challenging.

I suspect a bit of this with Subarus is the horizontally opposed engine design. The oil doesn't get the same gravity assist as it does in other designs, which is the same reason they had to work hard on head gasket issues.

[reuben]

Originally Posted by fmradio516

My ex bought a brand new 2017 Subaru Crosstrek and after about 20k miles(and maybe even earlier?), it started consuming a over a quart of oil between 5k oil change intervals. Even had the low oil light come on the dash a couple times.

At that time, my only cars I ever owned was an 89 BMW 325i and an 04 Jeep Grand Cherokee... Both came to me with over 150k miles on em and even as they hit 200k, they MAYBE burned a quarter quart of oil in the same intervals.

It blew my mind that her basically new car was burning oil. Took it to the dealer for an oil consumption test, because I found out this is a thing with a lot of newer cars, and they said that burning a quart of oil between oil changes is completely normal. So bonkers!! After researching, they do this to make better MPG on paper. So a** backwards!! Theres gonna be a lot of clogged catalytic converters coming..

It's a game that Subaru and many/most/all manufacturers play in order to meet US EPA mpg standards. You may note that the recommended oil is thinner than in the past as well. This is for the same reason.

Better mileage, but more wear and tear on the engine.

[fmradio516]

Originally Posted by benb

Old cars typically burned more than a quart of oil per 5k miles. Owners just didn't notice it because:

a) They had a short oil change interval
b) The car might not be able to signal on the dash that the oil level was low.
c) They never really checked the oil level themselves at the dipstick

I ran synthetic in both my 89 BMW and 04 Jeep, so the oil change interval was the same as the '17 Subaru. And I always check the oil myself. Didnt know there was such a light on the Subaru until a couple years ago.

Originally Posted by benb

I suspect a bit of this with Subarus is the horizontally opposed engine design. The oil doesn't get the same gravity assist as it does in other designs, which is the same reason they had to work hard on head gasket issues.

Maybe, but a lot of techs including the Car Care Nut confirmed its due to the piston rings tolerances intentionally allowing more oil to pass through.

This is also a major problem on Toyotas. At least on some of the Tacomas.

[benb]

Originally Posted by fmradio516

I ran synthetic in both my 89 BMW and 04 Jeep, so the oil change interval was the same as the '17 Subaru. And I always check the oil myself. Didnt know there was such a light on the Subaru until a couple years ago.



Maybe, but a lot of techs including the Car Care Nut confirmed its due to the piston rings tolerances intentionally allowing more oil to pass through.

This is also a major problem on Toyotas. At least on some of the Tacomas.

Also the oil viscosity being so thin.

Lots of things on gas cars that aren't great but serve the goals that only EVs can really solve.

[superbowlpats]

Today's cars are incredibly complex, too complex imho. But people want HUD, active cruise, self driving etc. As Rice Rocket said, the manufacturer's model these days seems to be lease to those who want new then sell as a CPO to those who can't afford new (or dont want to pay new msrp). Win win for them. I've done the CPO route a few times. When I look back at the receipts, while I am happy not to have a monthly payment, what I spent on maintenance and wear and tear items is pretty close to what I could have just continually leased a new car for (at least in the case of higher end German cars). There is no right answer unless you live somewhere where you dont need a car. My most recent purchase was a 2023 Honda Ridgeline. I traded in a 2013 Jetta TDI Sportwagen and sold a 2009 Tacoma. Hopefully the Honda remains reliable (I did purchase an extended warranty).

[martl]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

That's the sales model though, right?

Lease a car out to people eyeballing a shiny new car, and it all falls apart for the second owner at 36 months so they can sell parts to the dreamers.

I am not sure if I understand what you mean by "sales model" those were cars various companies had leased, through different channels. Some were owned by the car dealership, others from large "fleet management" services. If you're implying the manufacturers have different quality levels of products for different sales channels, I have never heard such a thing; the closest I know about would be that some companies like VW "downgrade" certain parts for certain markets, because, for example, a car for the US market is unlikely to see several braking maneuvers from top speed down to 50mls, which is not uncommon for German Autobahn use. Tire specs, i believe, are also something where money saving happens

I can't confirm the "falling apart after 36 months" impression either. (i speak about germany because that is where i live and i also have a few contacts in the industry). The "premium" brands mostly supply the "company car" market. It i is a bit government subsidized, the company gets a tax reduction doing it. This amounts for over 60% of all new car sales in germany, even higher -up to 80%- for "upper class" vehicles.
The intended purpose is to make those cars available to the used car market at the end of the leasing period, typically 2-3 years.
Consequently, very few "private" owners buy new - just too expensive- and instead buy those ex Leasing cars. I am not aware of extensive quality problems reported by those owners.

The quite strict "TÜV" mandatory technical evaluation reports what you would expect; the older the cars get, the higher the risk of technical failure is. (mind you they only look at features that affect road worthiness and safety; failing electronic gadgets dont factor in)
Brands like Audi or VW have models both in the "best of" and the "worst in class" categories, as does BMW... rather than smelling a "planned obsolescence" conspiracy, i recon the product has become so complex and the cost cutting pressure so high, that; along with the ever reduced development cycles, they just are in a hit and miss-situation, quality wise. There also seems to be a connection to in what specific factory the specific car is produced (for example, spanish-made VW group cars seem to fare worse...)

[benb]

Just saw an article that Toyotas on average still last 250k miles 17% of the time, best of any manufacturer. (7 of the 10 vehicles most likely to go 250k were Toyota/Lexus)

There are some models like the Tundra and Sequoia that pull off this feat in excess of 35% of the time.

So really I think manufacturers where the standard logic/wisdom is to lease for 3 years and then return it and they try to sell it CPO with another warranty added on are just getting away with that because they have catered to a segment of the market that doesn't punish them for building really shiny cars that have pretty shaky bones underneath. The cars have those issues and the sales/dealerships have adapted to deal with it.

I doubt they have any intention of making cars that don't last or are unreliable, it's just hard to do, and they've got a bunch of product managers demanding they check off all these new features and that makes it harder.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by benb

There are some models like the Tundra and Sequoia that pull off this feat in excess of 35% of the time.

I think that comes down substantially to a matter of cost. Very expensive cars usually can be on the road for lots of miles because you never really scrap them, just keep replacing what is broken.

Similarly most full size trucks will easily go to 250k, as above, because unless they are in a major wreck, or rusted to death, you just keep fixing them.

unibody cars/suv's are another story, those can literally fall apart.

[Red Tornado]

Originally Posted by martl

I am not sure if I understand what you mean by "sales model" those were cars various companies had leased, through different channels. Some were owned by the car dealership, others from large "fleet management" services. If you're implying the manufacturers have different quality levels of products for different sales channels, I have never heard such a thing; the closest I know about would be that some companies like VW "downgrade" certain parts for certain markets, because, for example, a car for the US market is unlikely to see several braking maneuvers from top speed down to 50mls, which is not uncommon for German Autobahn use. Tire specs, i believe, are also something where money saving happens

I can't confirm the "falling apart..........

I believe what @RiceRocket might have meant by "sales model" is not different models of vehicles at different quality levels, but rather sales model as in sales strategy or sales plan. The person who leases the new car for 3 years gets a sweet, dependable ride then trades it in for the next car. The 3 year old car is then sold on the used car lot and that next buyer gets to deal with the breakdowns, etc.

[benb]

Originally Posted by Red Tornado

I believe what @RiceRocket might have meant by "sales model" is not different models of vehicles at different quality levels, but rather sales model as in sales strategy or sales plan. The person who leases the new car for 3 years gets a sweet, dependable ride then trades it in for the next car. The 3 year old car is then sold on the used car lot and that next buyer gets to deal with the breakdowns, etc.

You get a bad deal on the lease with these in any case though as a lot of the cars that get leased this way have terrible resale value & depreciation and that's how the lease is priced.

But people don't seem to care.

As an aside it's not the same group of cars but EVs are apparently getting leased at a higher percentage than almost anything else because over the last 5 years they've had massive depreciation and price drops along with the fear buyers have of newer cars being much improved.

See the Tesla Model Y owners being furious the price dropped $25k in a year or two.

[Red Tornado]

So, the Taos now has wipers that start running randomly, even thought the stalk is on the "off" position. Sometimes you can make a round trip without them coming on, sometimes it's every couple minutes. I'm thinking it's the switch, since our model doesn't have rain sensing wipers.
Also, the wife informed me the low coolant light came on this morning. We just had the same issue about 3 months back and they replaced the head gasket. Low coolant, but not leaking, so it's getting burned. VW dealer told me there was a TSB on this issue and they had replaced a lot of head gaskets already. They had the car for about 10 days. 3 months and ~2,500 miles later, same prob. Remains to be seen if the replacement head gasket had issues or if the dealer didn't do a good job on the R&R. The hits keep coming.

I understand vehicles are complex and things do happen, but the level of problems we're seeing in the past 3 1/2 years, and especially the latest 1 1/2 years is above the level we had when we each had a vehicle with over 100K miles. These two have a combined 51K. I'm sorry, in my book that is not acceptable. The main reason we bought new was to avoid the exact scenario we're in now.

If we only had that 97 Escort wagon and my 2000 Dakota back, with the same mileage as the two we have now. They two were in the shop nowhere near the amount the two new vehicles are.

[azrider]

Originally Posted by Red Tornado

I believe what @RiceRocket might have meant by "sales model" is not different models of vehicles at different quality levels, but rather sales model as in sales strategy or sales plan. The person who leases the new car for 3 years gets a sweet, dependable ride then trades it in for the next car. The 3 year old car is then sold on the used car lot and that next buyer gets to deal with the breakdowns, etc.

..........and the maintenance that comes with engine/trans that's reaching their first interval

[2000m2]

I didn't read every single post in this thread, but the ones I did really make me want to hang on to our '08 V8 4Runner. We keep thinking it might make sense to move to something with better fuel mileage or electric, though we don't usually put that many miles on it per year.

[fmradio516]

Originally Posted by 2000m2

I didn't read every single post in this thread, but the ones I did really make me want to hang on to our '08 V8 4Runner. We keep thinking it might make sense to move to something with better fuel mileage or electric, though we don't usually put that many miles on it per year.

Nah - Definitely sell it! With the prices of gas these days....... PM me when you're ready to take my cash

[bikinchris]

Originally Posted by Red Tornado

So, the Taos now has wipers that start running randomly, even thought the stalk is on the "off" position. Sometimes you can make a round trip without them coming on, sometimes it's every couple minutes. I'm thinking it's the switch, since our model doesn't have rain sensing wipers.
Also, the wife informed me the low coolant light came on this morning. We just had the same issue about 3 months back and they replaced the head gasket. Low coolant, but not leaking, so it's getting burned. VW dealer told me there was a TSB on this issue and they had replaced a lot of head gaskets already. They had the car for about 10 days. 3 months and ~2,500 miles later, same prob. Remains to be seen if the replacement head gasket had issues or if the dealer didn't do a good job on the R&R. The hits keep coming.

I understand vehicles are complex and things do happen, but the level of problems we're seeing in the past 3 1/2 years, and especially the latest 1 1/2 years is above the level we had when we each had a vehicle with over 100K miles. These two have a combined 51K. I'm sorry, in my book that is not acceptable. The main reason we bought new was to avoid the exact scenario we're in now.

If we only had that 97 Escort wagon and my 2000 Dakota back, with the same mileage as the two we have now. They two were in the shop nowhere near the amount the two new vehicles are.

There is no off switch on the stalk. the fault is more likely in the motor itself.