If........

[RudAwkning]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

I dunno about this - a CSi is/was defined by a few different things IMO.........first was of course the materials (which not only dictate the ride but also the look) and next was the group of guys that made the bikes in a given place and time. I think if it wasn't made by those guys, in that building, with those parts then it's not a 'real' CSi. It might be every bit as nice a bike but by definition it's not a CSi.

So if you change the fundamental design of the bike with a big head tube and disc brakes it's even further away from a CSi and all you have at that point is a decal that says 'CSi' on it and not much more.

FWIW - I built about 60 lugged and filleted Serottas from here in Bozeman using Carl Strong's shop. Serotta sent me the parts and I turned them into framesets and sent them back. They were built by a guy who built about as many steel Serottas as anyone else ever has (yes me) so I certainly knew how they went together. They were made with the right stuff and were painted in the right place and had the right decals on them but in my mind they were not the same as a CSi made in NY. Not better, not worse, but not the same as they weren't made under the same circumstances.

I realize this might not make sense to others but to me a thing is defined by certain things and when you change any of those things it's not the same thing any more.

dave

The bike won't be a CSi. It won't even be a Serotta. But it can have the heart and soul of one. You should take those signature pieces and build a CSI as you would envision it would be built today with the best of what's available now. Isn't that what you guys set out to do when designing the first CSi? Making the best steel bike possible?

[victoryfactory]

Dave;

Get with Kelly and Dave W. share the build chores as a group.
Get Ben to sign it. Auction it off at NAHBS. Donate the proceeds to
the charity of your choice.
I say this without actual knowledge of the personalities or politics that
may be involved so please pardon me if there is any oil/ water thing
with the people mentioned or omitted. I'm just looking at this from an
innocent pov that would solidify and focus a great bicycle legacy, be fun,
help a charity and be great pr.

VF

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Ralph

Do you think you would have any problem with trade marks? Surely someone owns the Serotta name. If no trade mark issues, and you could figure out what to call it, sounds like an interesting project.

Being an old guy, I do understand the idea behind paying some respect to those that helped you get where you are. And....maybe revisiting some of those old skills might be useful. And......not the least.....I'm sure the bikes would ride great. And building by request would make it work from a small businessman's point of view (which is how I look at a lot of things). Good luck! BTW.....Love Bozeman.

I doubt it...Mark Nobilette made me a frame with a Cinelli BB shell, so I could get the far superior Italian threading..but it was a Nobilette, not a 'Cinelli'..

It would still be a 'Kirk', even with a serotta BB shell..IMHO.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by fogrider

Dave, I'm sure someone will want a "homage" frame/bike, but what would they do with it? and would you put kirk decals on it? what would you call it? would it ridden on ice cream rides?

Every weekend, how many lost souls are rolling on carbon bikes that weigh under 18 pounds, some under 16 pounds. why not take those parts and weld them up with 953 and 853 tubing and build a ride that is as good as anything else you build today? sure make something that looks like a CSI or a colorado, but it should be a great riding bike that someone would want to ride hard today! wouldn't that really pay homage to those parts?

I think i understand your point.

I suppose one could use some modern tubes with the older parts but for the most part you can't find stuff to fit. The Colorado tubes flared from 1 1/8" at the top to 1 3/8" at the BB and this is the reason these tubes worked the way they did. If you use straight 1 3/8" tubes the frame would be WAY too stiff for all but the biggest and heaviest guys. So without the flared tubes the BB becomes pretty useless............and the flared tubes are not available in the superlight and thin 953/853 material.

I think an homage bike would be a way for folks to ride a little slice in time and see how the Serottas of the day rode - which is pretty damn good and very much unique at the time. They were, and are, great riding bikes that have a understandable following and it just feels like fun to me to build a few that honor that.

dave

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by regularguy412

My CSI came with just the Serotta 'S' decal no real 'head badge'. The decal that was not replaced was the two-tone (half and half reversed) 25th anniversary insignia that looked exactly like the badge in the pic-- except that it was done up in light/dark blues. The 'missing' decal was originally located just above the BB on the front of the seat tube. It's not such a huge deal, but I was kinda disappointed that my 25th anniversary bike no longer had the identifying mark.

Thanks for your input. I just thot I'd never see anything like that again, since it's been so long since the bike was originally built.

Thanks again,
Mike in AR

I understand now - we have our wires crossed I think. The photo shows a head badge that was made specifically for the 25 bikes we built to celebrate the 25th anniversary. It was a unique model and all of them got this headbadge.

If I understand properly you have a standard CSi that is missed the decal on the seat tube that mentions the dates and years of manufacture of the bikes and that you don't have a 25th anniversary bike.

I'm not sure where you would get that decal you are missing. I would check with Screen Specialties - they are the folks that made the decals to begin with and they may be holding some stock of them.

Does this make sense?

dave

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by RudAwkning

The bike won't be a CSi. It won't even be a Serotta. But it can have the heart and soul of one. You should take those signature pieces and build a CSI as you would envision it would be built today with the best of what's available now. Isn't that what you guys set out to do when designing the first CSi? Making the best steel bike possible?

You are of course right on - said bike would not be a CSi nor would it be a Serotta but instead it would, if built, be an homage to the company and the bikes it made.

It would of course be a time capsule of sorts where one would draw a line in the sand and say "I want to a bike just like 1992" and not be the newest most cutting edge bike that takes in account the passing years and the advancement of materials that have happened over that time. I think if one wanted to build a CSi for 2014 one would use Colorado tubes made out of 953 with walls of .55/.35/.55, lighter c-stays with more aggressive butts, thinner s-stays......etc. The problem of course is that these tubes don't exist and can't be had at anything near to a reasonable cost.

I feel my current offerings, especially the JKS, are the best bike I can build with the materials that are currently available. I use stock 953 main tubes (and can't think of a way I would change them) and chainstays, seat stays and fork blades that are made for me to give the ride I feel a bike should have. The specs evolve over time with the idea being that at any given time the JKS is the best bike I can build.........it's in its DNA and it will continue to evolve over time. An homage bike would by design be a time capsule of a time that has passed and in that way be different that what I currently build.

dave

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by victoryfactory

Dave;

Get with Kelly and Dave W. share the build chores as a group.
Get Ben to sign it. Auction it off at NAHBS. Donate the proceeds to
the charity of your choice.
I say this without actual knowledge of the personalities or politics that
may be involved so please pardon me if there is any oil/ water thing
with the people mentioned or omitted. I'm just looking at this from an
innocent pov that would solidify and focus a great bicycle legacy, be fun,
help a charity and be great pr.

VF

That is a fun idea. From a practicality standpoint it would be a really tough thing to pull off as the three of us are spread out pretty darn far across the country. I think the only way to build something as a collaboration would be to have the three of us in the same place at the same time with a pile of orders in hand and then we could work together on the bikes. Otherwise it would mean someone does something and puts it in a box and sends it off the the next guy and this would be tough to do well and certainly lose any feel of a true collaboration.

I think I can speak for the 3 of us when I say we all get along very well and that we have huge respect for one another so I can't see politics or personalities being a problem. I think it would be fun to make the shop dirty with those guys again.

So I'm not sure one could make it work from a time/space/distance standpoint but it sounds like fun.

dave

[Climb01742]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

I think an homage bike would be a way for folks to ride a little slice in time and see how the Serottas of the day rode - which is pretty damn good and very much unique at the time. They were, and are, great riding bikes that have a understandable following and it just feels like fun to me to build a few that honor that.

dave

If I understand this project correctly (and for me that's always iffy) it seems to have two parts. One part is to build bikes for others to ride. The other part is more personal for you, and thus in my book, more valuable. You want to pay homage to and honor a time, place, group of people and achievements in your life. My two cents...follow your heart and this second mission. Greatness comes more often from a personal itch that needs scratching than a public need met.

[miguel]

disc brake CSI with all the internal hydro routing
painted in bizarro 7-11

[majorpat]

Build a Kirk with the parts, it will have a Serotta soul. Shouldn't be a CSi, I think we just need to let Serotta go and move forward. Guys like DK, Bedford and others share some of the experience of Serotta and are now moving that legacy further down the road. As my 9 year old daughter sings several times a day, "let it go!"
Pat

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by majorpat

Build a Kirk with the parts, it will have a Serotta soul. Shouldn't be a CSi, I think we just need to let Serotta go and move forward. Guys like DK, Bedford and others share some of the experience of Serotta and are now moving that legacy further down the road. As my 9 year old daughter sings several times a day, "let it go!"
Pat

Exactly - I would never dream of building anything but a 'Kirk' and couldn't build a Serotta even if I wanted to.........that ship has sailed.

dave

[jr59]

Dave, what ever you decide to build, I'm sure will be great. You know about the history of the brand, and how to build a great bike.

Just please let us all know what you decide to do. As I am sure that all of us would love to see this project, in whatever form it takes.

[rnhood]

I will agree with "climb011742", build something from your heart given this moment in time - so to speak. Make a conceptual drawing or picture prior to building, then build it once someone commits. I like the 10th anniversary idea that you implemented but, I guess you don't have enough parts to do this type thing again. Sounds like this particular one will be a one-off.

[Tim Porter]

Dave: fun idea, check your email . . . . Tim

[happycampyer]

Originally Posted by Tim Porter

Dave: fun idea, check your email . . . . Tim

This could be Kirk #4...