HSG Bikes

[CNY rider]

Originally Posted by 1centaur

Two points:

Calfee and Parlee, to name two, are making CF bikes at lower price points than Serotta with the same tubing source in the US or perhaps these days from a closely-related US spin-off. Assuming all three makers pay their work force about the same, and given that Serotta's fixed costs are amortized over a larger base, I think it's fair to say that the HSG and Attack CF frames are not priced where they are because they're domestically made.

Second, Ben Serotta has built up enough goodwill by his attention to design and construction that if he chose to have an Asian-sourced line of CF bikes I would hope most here would expect them to be up to Serotta's historic standards and consider them worthy of purchase. Of course, they'd have to have a level top tube and a decent paint job

Ben does have tremendous credibility in my eyes. He would be going deep into the well of goodwill however if he started putting his name on Taiwanese /Chinese carbon. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Asian carbon frames, just that it's not what I expect from Serotta. The craftsmen making frames in Saratoga mean a lot to me when I make my purchasing decisions. I'm not sure how I would react to a Taiwan carbon Serotta.

[Serotta PETE]

1centaur, I do not mean to start a food fight here but -
- how do you know "they" use the same tubing source? and then you say>>
- or as to closely related US spin off (you got me on that one- what does it mean in terms of anything?)
- What do you basing you assumption on in regard to price. All carbon is not the same, nor is all design, or QC, or experience that goes into product.
- Most do not care if level top tube or not?? While I like a level top tube, the likes of Specialized/Giant prove that it is not necessary. (Yes their product is made and tubing sourced outside US). This is neither good or bad just fact. Seortta is US only. They even bought a mft in Calif for Carbon
- Decent paint?? I am willing to match their paint to any other manufacturer. What are you basing your statement on?

Others might not have found your note offensive, but I had a problem with the way you stated some items as "Fact". Have you ridden the bikes, been part of the manufacturing or tubing spec evaluation?"

I typically stay out of these "food fights" but I would ask that you hold evaluation till you ride them - and even then let folks form their own opinion.

You are on the site sponsored by SEROTTA (who else offers such a site?). While you do not have to "white wash" the product AT least base things on fact and quantified assumptions.

The dedication to the sport and the product of such folks as Ben, Kelly, Jason, and the entire SEROTTA team is second to none.

If the two manufactures that you mention are more to your liking, there is no problem "Buy them". All I ask is that you let others do the same.

Stop by sometime for a glass of red and I am sure we will have a good time. Ben might even supply the red - if not I will.

PETE

Originally Posted by 1centaur

Two points:

Calfee and Parlee, to name two, are making CF bikes at lower price points than Serotta with the same tubing source in the US or perhaps these days from a closely-related US spin-off. Assuming all three makers pay their work force about the same, and given that Serotta's fixed costs are amortized over a larger base, I think it's fair to say that the HSG and Attack CF frames are not priced where they are because they're domestically made.

Second, Ben Serotta has built up enough goodwill by his attention to design and construction that if he chose to have an Asian-sourced line of CF bikes I would hope most here would expect them to be up to Serotta's historic standards and consider them worthy of purchase. Of course, they'd have to have a level top tube and a decent paint job

[1centaur]

I sent you a PM on these issues Pete.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by 1centaur

. Assuming all three makers pay their work force about the same,

huge assumption, no?
serotta is long established with a group of top notch long time staff members who are well paid by industry standards.
how does that compare to parlee?
i dont know calfees operation.

the frame is not the tubing. raw materials are a relatively small part of the cost of a top notch frame.

[pdxmech13]

I don't see how there can be an argument in the cost of what serotta is selling the carbon models for. Sure we could name names of those who have been doing it for some time but a Serotta is a Serotta after all.

[saab2000]

It is a business and clearly Serotta is getting something because of the name on the downtube. Whatever 'Better' means is not really the issue here. But Serotta can ask for $7000 or whatever it is for a Meivici because they know that some people will pay it. I cannot, but some others can and that is their target market.

A Ferrari and a Porsche 911 Turbo have more or less identical performance and from a numbers point of view are comparable. Somehow Ferrari is able to charge more. Why? Because they can.

Something is worth what people will pay for it. This has been discussed a lot here.

[pdxmech13]

I totally think you hit the nail on the head. Good work cost money especially with a big work force !

OrgName: Covad Communications Co.
OrgID: CVAD
Address: 2510 Zanker Rd.
City: San Jose
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Country: US


Where did serotta get this "high speed geometry"? Does a frame builder just out of the blue decide to begin building "great" racing frames without having any history of building racing frames? Oh ya, that's how Colnago and Time started to build great racing frames. These frame builders just decided one day that they were going to build a "high speed geometry" frame out of thin air. NOT! It takes a history of racing and innovation and endless wind tunnel testing and CAAD designs to come up with a great racing geometry. How does a company with a business model of building frames for fat old slow guys go about building a "high speed geometry" frame?

The frame building industry is always making claims of new technological innovations that promise to make the cyclist go faster and climb better. But this serotta HSG has got to be the most surprising and outlandish claim that I have heard in all of my years as a racer. So what's next? Is subaru going to announce tomorrow that they are building a sports car that is on par with Porsche? Or perhaps Pontiac is getting ready to announce a new line of BMWs. Any frame builder can make outrageous claims but only a fool would mistake such claims for real innovation.

[mike p]

(But this serotta HSG has got to be the most surprising and outlandish claim that I have heard in all of my years as a racer.)



Then you don't have many years as a racer or you would know serotta has a history building real race bikes. A TDF sponsored team as well as many rebadged bikes in the hands of euro pro's. They have also sponsored many domestic teams. Do a little research next time before making a fool of yourself.

Mike

[pdxmech13]

are you serious ?

[ThasFACE]

Originally Posted by pdxmech13

are you serious ?

litespeeder has made similar comments on rbr. I have only seen a handful of his posts, but it seems that he really likes to diss serotta.

For example: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/sho...68535#poststop

[Simon Q]

Originally Posted by litespeeder3

Where did serotta get this "high speed geometry"? Does a frame builder just out of the blue decide to begin building "great" racing frames without having any history of building racing frames? Oh ya, that's how Colnago and Time started to build great racing frames. These frame builders just decided one day that they were going to build a "high speed geometry" frame out of thin air. NOT! It takes a history of racing and innovation and endless wind tunnel testing and CAAD designs to come up with a great racing geometry. How does a company with a business model of building frames for fat old slow guys go about building a "high speed geometry" frame?

The frame building industry is always making claims of new technological innovations that promise to make the cyclist go faster and climb better. But this serotta HSG has got to be the most surprising and outlandish claim that I have heard in all of my years as a racer. So what's next? Is subaru going to announce tomorrow that they are building a sports car that is on par with Porsche? Or perhaps Pontiac is getting ready to announce a new line of BMWs. Any frame builder can make outrageous claims but only a fool would mistake such claims for real innovation.

Dude, you are making yourself look a little silly with that rant and, if it is you, the rant in the link that ThasFACE dug up even seeks to offend a group with a disability in the process. Way to go.

[dave thompson]

Relax all, it's just litespeeder...err...no, wait it's litespeeder2, dang..it's litespeeder3 in his new guise as his usual arrogant jerk (sorry obtuse) self, of whom both his earlier iterations are on posting probation here and on other bike forums. This kind of post apparently makes him feel important and gives him some dim hope that we think that he knows what he's talking about.

[pdxmech13]

and to think i was going to get all upset and cry myself to sleep again

[Simon Q]

Looking back again, I love this one:

How does a company with a business model of building frames for fat old slow guys go about building a "high speed geometry" frame?

This must be an inside job if he knows the real business model at Serotta.