The 'Un-Official' Campagnolo Ekar thread

[morrisond]

Originally Posted by nighthawk

This is the best photo I could find showing the degree to which the larger cogs are cantilevered.

Yes they are cantilevered but if it is significant why did they have to make a new chain that is .25mm thinner? If for instance the 13th cog is just spaced out 1 cog wider and maintains 12S spacing?

I think there is about 3.4 mm between the cogs - EKAR should be tighter - if they picked up .25*12 the new Cassette may only be .41mm wider. Which seems similar to previous jumps between speeds.

[morrisond]

Originally Posted by thirdgenbird

I appreciate the apology. No reason to get frustrated. I am happy to converse if it’s welcome. I fully admit my comments are speculation and it wouldn’t hurt my feelings if they are incorrect.

Yes, 11 and 12 are both cantilevered but the rear of an ekar cassette looks more so. That could be an issue. I also could be wrong. Even on 10spd setups, the derailleur would get very close to the spokes on some hubs. This is one of the reasons Chris King abandoned their Campagnolo freehub. There was not enough clearance to accommodate the 12spd cassette. If 13 is any wider, then it could create further issue. Cog size and spoke bracing angle are limiting factors on several current drivetrains. Remember, it’s not just the cog itself. It’s the derailleur cage. Larger cogs create more room for the derailleur cage due to spoke angle.

I apologize if it feels like I am taking you out of context. It’s not my intent at all. Bicycle drivetrains are pretty complex, you can’t look at just a few variables in a vacuum, the whole system needs to be considered. Eliminating the front derailleur removes a lot of them. Forget 2x13. I vote wider hubs and 1x15 if the chain can take the angle.

I am here for fun and friendly conversation. I did what you are suggesting with 10 speed years ago. My 10 speed bike has alloy record levers with pointy hoods.

Boost rear here we come. That could get us to 14sp with better bracing angle on the NDS.

Funny thing is I was thinking of boosting my next bike - mainly because I wanted wider flanges on an front generator hub - but no one makes one with wider flanges so no point. Plus better bracing angles in the rear. It would have 435mm+ CS in the rear so boost could have worked.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by morrisond

Yes they are cantilevered but if it is significant why did they have to make a new chain that is .25mm thinner? If for instance the 13th cog is just spaced out 1 cog wider and maintains 12S spacing?

I think there is about 3.4 mm between the cogs - EKAR should be tighter - if they picked up .25*12 the new Cassette may only be .41mm wider. Which seems similar to previous jumps between speeds.

The chain might be narrower since it has to span a greater cassette width and angle with the the same chairing to cassette distance. If the chain was the same width then there’s the possibility that it would cause sloppy shifting or excessive wear to drivetrain components. No one knows at this point until brave (or crazy) souls like Dave take it upon themselves to commence their own experiments.

Originally Posted by morrisond

i don't want to waste my money - that's why I'm hoping someone else will try it .

So you want someone else to do all the hard, time-consuming and costly work without contributing anything of substance or knowledge? Alrighty then.

[thirdgenbird]

Originally Posted by morrisond

Yes they are cantilevered but if it is significant why did they have to make a new chain that is .25mm thinner?

Probably because we are nearing the practical limits of our current hub spacing. Fractions of a millimeter manner.

Keep in mind this is also with a 36t. This will make a surprising difference. I had a Giant wheel for a while that nearly contacted my record derailleur. The temporary fix was adjusting the “b-screw” to pull the derailleur further from the cassette and into an area where the spokes were narrower.

[phishrabbi]

Originally Posted by Dave

The current Chorus 12 RD will already work perfectly with a 10-36 SRAM cassette.

I've seen reports of it working, but does it really, "work perfectly?"

[AngryScientist]

R&A just posted some new 3T strada bikes with EKAR, so apparently they are looking to outfit road bikes with this kit too. looks the business.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by martl

I just checked Ekar consumable part prices. 259 for a cassette.,seriously?

sram 12s cogsets are easily in the $190-$360 range..

This whole gig is pretty funny..arguing about making something '2by' or hacking with another rear der when this group really haven't even made it to the wild yet..

Lets argue about how to hack DA 12s!!! Get out that lathe and mod 11s FHB for 12s or hack that DA 11s, Di2, rear der and RH shifter to 12s..calling electricians!!

[morrisond]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

The chain might be narrower since it has to span a greater cassette width and angle with the the same chairing to cassette distance. If the chain was the same width then there’s the possibility that it would cause sloppy shifting or excessive wear to drivetrain components. No one knows at this point until brave (or crazy) souls like Dave take it upon themselves to commence their own experiments.


So you want someone else to do all the hard, time-consuming and costly work without contributing anything of substance or knowledge? Alrighty then.

Do people have a habit of taking things out of context on this forum?

You wonder why I got upset yesterday.

If you had bothered to include the rest of what I wrote which said basically - however if you have EKAR and a 12sp derailleur there is no cost to try it - it reads totally different.

And the crack about "Without contributing anything of substance or Knowledge" - I'll let the mods deal with that one. I'm starting to remember why I dislike this forum.

It is not a discussion forum - its place where people sling veiled insults and belittle people for trying to have a discussion of what might be possible.

If I had the parts I would try it in a heart beat. However as the bike that it might go on isn't scheduled to be built until the new year I have yet to order EKAR and am kind of waiting just in case 2x13 comes out to see what it looks like or if it turns out to be technically possible with a Combination of 12 and 13 speed.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by morrisond

And the crack about "Without contributing anything of substance or Knowledge" - I'll let the mods deal with that one. I'm starting to remember why I dislike this forum.

It is not a discussion forum - its place where people sling veiled insults and belittle people for trying to have a discussion of what might be possible.
.

your remarks in this thread are getting a little too heated and personal. since you obviously have a low opinion of the forum, you can sit it out for a couple weeks. you seem to be the only one taking it personally, and since this is such a good, informative thread, we're not going to let it get sidelined with personal stuff like this.

keep it friendly, keep it technical!

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

sram 12s cogsets are easily in the $190-$360 range..

This whole gig is pretty funny..arguing about making something '2by' or hacking with another rear der when this group really haven't even made it to the wild yet..

Lets argue about how to hack DA 12s!!! Get out that lathe and mod 11s FHB for 12s or hack that DA 11s, Di2, rear der and RH shifter to 12s..calling electricians!!

$259 isn't horrible honestly. I mean, yeah, it sucks to spend that but it's what, once a year or every other year. Or for some of use, once every 3 or 4 years. It's not like $75 or $85 for an Ultegra. But still. It's not horrible. As you said, the Red 12 and Eagle cassettes are $350+. Hell, the SR12 is that much. It's all perspective.

The whole convo about the 2x hack, if someone wants to try, go for it. I won't. I really don't like mixing and matching brands or even components when I don't have too. Just too much chance of things not working and then it leads to frustration, then anger, then throwing stuff. Then of course you have to try and undo what you did. Which leads to more things being thrown when you can't. I just put a KMC X11 SL chain on a new SRAM Force 22 kit and it's shifting like crap. And it's a great chain. So I'm frustrated since they should play nice together but aren't. I have a SRAM chain on the way in the hopes it stops the problem. But I just find keeping the same thing brand wise or not trying the "hacks" less frustrating. IMO of course.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

your remarks in this thread are getting a little too heated and personal. since you obviously have a low opinion of the forum, you can sit it out for a couple weeks. you seem to be the only one taking it personally, and since this is such a good, informative thread, we're not going to let it get sidelined with personal stuff like this.

keep it friendly, keep it technical!

I think we need to try the flaming bags of pooh Nick. Agreed? LOL!!

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by morrisond

Do people have a habit of taking things out of context on this forum?

You wonder why I got upset yesterday.

If you had bothered to include the rest of what I wrote which said basically - however if you have EKAR and a 12sp derailleur there is no cost to try it - it reads totally different.

And the crack about "Without contributing anything of substance or Knowledge" - I'll let the mods deal with that one. I'm starting to remember why I dislike this forum.

It is not a discussion forum - its place where people sling veiled insults and belittle people for trying to have a discussion of what might be possible.

If I had the parts I would try it in a heart beat. However as the bike that it might go on isn't scheduled to be built until the new year I have yet to order EKAR and am kind of waiting just in case 2x13 comes out to see what it looks like or if it turns out to be technically possible with a Combination of 12 and 13 speed.

I was told by Campy they have no plans to make a 2x13. I trust their comment to me, they haven't misled me yet so I take them that a 2x13 isn't in the works.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I think we need to try the flaming bags of pooh Nick. Agreed? LOL!!

haha.

no poop!

seriously though, with all that's going on in the world, it's good to have a super busy thread about campagnolo parts. there is plenty of other stuff to actually get upset about!

anyone who is feeling low this morning should take a trip over here:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showt...177053&page=41

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I was told by Campy they have no plans to make a 2x13. I trust their comment to me, they haven't misled me yet so I take them that a 2x13 isn't in the works.

i mean, they literally JUST came out with 12 - it just makes sense that 12 will be the 2x platform moving forward for a while.

also, any intel on what they lower road groups will look like in the forseeable future? veloce? centaur? potenza? i'd imagine we are about due for a sub chorus 12 group in the next year or two?

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

haha.

no poop!

seriously though, with all that's going on in the world, it's good to have a super busy thread about campagnolo parts. there is plenty of other stuff to actually get upset about!

anyone who is feeling low this morning should take a trip over here:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showt...177053&page=41

I'm glad for that. I understand things get heated but it's over silly stuff right now. Like I said before, if someone wants to do, go for it! I just won't do it. Too many chances it won't work perfectly like it was designed. Back when Fairwheel was doing the Di2 mountain hacks, I was impressed. Just like I;d be here. But I personally wouldn't do either. I'm not a huge fan of mixing anymore. I used to be. I'd have different calipers with different levers. Different BB's with different cranks and rings. I used to do it all the time especially for weight reasons. I guess I'm getting old or something.