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#32
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thanks everyone, so many good insights and suggestions
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the Ritchey does tick a lot of boxes for sure and there's no real reason to mark it off the list Quote:
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and i like where your head is at regarding bikebags not fitting the smaller triangles! certainly ought to be a consideration. re making any bike work - totally. that is what i've been doing on the voodoo ... i feel like some of the other commenters maybe didn't click the link in my OP so i'll put a photo of the bike i've been riding here Quote:
X > Y and the arguments never take into account the full picture. your 25 tires ride nice but there are 98 other variables contributing to that nice ride (yes you mentioned nice Ti frames but then there are other factors eh?) and that is excluding your biases. but anyway, i asked for input from all of you here with some order of magnitude more saddle time than i and i appreciate your PoV Quote:
32! that is what i'm currently on the bike above and it's nice, for sure , i just don't expect to find a rim brake road bike with the clearance... maybe i shoulding right off disc brakes. re making it special - good advice! sometimes i come across a frame and i like so much about it and i think "it ticks all the boxes! ... but it looks heinous..." for sure i want to want to look at it Quote:
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perfect! i have zero practical knowledge of this stuff and am glad you take the other side of this argument and open my mind a bit more. part of my initial desire to stay away from carbon (though i've come around on carbon) and discs is because i've worked in the fashion industry for a long time where there is something "new" shoved down your throat every 6 months for the sake of revenue, so i've approached this bike thing looking through the same lens and a healthy dose of skepticism and i look at the 2nd hand bike market and see these perfectly fine looking rejects that have been eschewed in favor of next years model, and that is something i want to capitalize on. then, bikes are technology where clothes aren't exactly, and i need to take that into consideration. it just doesn't help that the bike industry is also another industry of fashion. wiz bang doo dads, you know? re the $7k budget - no idea where that number came from! it's probably less than half that all in. so... let's say discs breaks are on the table - what should i hunt? (open the floodgates) new criteria becomes _sloping TT - which is basically a moot point considering the following _mechanical (no e-shift) _30mm+ tire clearance _2nd hand, not custom, any material Quote:
all well noted. i'm riding a bike (pic above) that isn't 100% dialed in fit but feels good overall and i think i know what i need to address and i plan to see a bike fitter, prior to another purchase, in hopes of getting some numbers and help me narrow my search. funny talking about fit though, i just got back from a ride and a guy rode up next to me and asked if the bike was mine or borrowed because i looked stretched out. Struck me as odd as I feel a bit cramped even and have wanted to bring my saddle forward a hair and add 1cm to my stem... anyway, all the more reason to get fitted. Quote:
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whats tire clerance on a 2017 izalco max disc though ? and as you said, i found a 2015 complete for under $1k and a 2014 team frameset for $325! Quote:
i've seen some hi-mods i like the look of, guess i need to figure out at what year the tire clearance opens up... if it does Quote:
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as for being picky - it's so easy to get overwhelmed, so many bikes! just trying to narrow the focus by picking a few things i think matter. they may not stick, maybe they shouldn't be "non-negotiables" but targets or considerations. I did also say this needs to be "the one" but only for now, im sure before long i'll find reason enough to have more than one for different occasions / rides / etc. appreciate that advice! Quote:
and again the Ritchey does seem to do all of the things in my OP and for relatively little money. Quote:
well noted. yes i put a bunch of racey set-ups in there then said i wanted a single bike to do it all... perhaps incongruent and i should weight the training & centuries more than the occasional event. i do want to get in on some of the faster local group rides here and then i suspect racier will be a + going to have to strike a balance before i have to open up having 2 road bikes for different purposes.
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IG Last edited by br0qn; 01-27-2024 at 06:35 PM. |
#33
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Reading thru this thread the bike that immediately comes to mind is a Specialized Tarmac SL6.
It seems like you might want a bike that isn't run of the mill. And that is where this recommendation might fall short. But it ticks some many boxes. And sure, everyone loves to bag on Specialized. But also everyone who has ridden an SL6 talks about what a great riding bike it is. |
#34
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Tire clearance opened up on 2016 Supersix Evo Hi-Mod and the 2017 non-Hi-Mod.
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Bingham/B.Jackson/Unicoi/Habanero/Raleigh20/429C/BigDummy/S6 |
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A previous poster said that it's hard to find a race bike that will accept 30mm tires. On the contrary, virtually every race bike that has come out in the last 5 years, and possibly further back than that, will accept 30mm tires.
Giant TCR? 32. New Propel? 30. Defy? 38/40. Enve Melee? 38/40. Tarmac SL8? Specialized says 32, can probably go 34. New Madone? 30. Even the new Ritchey Logic fits 30's! Anyway, if you've got half of that arbitrary number of $7000, this is the bike. Or this one. You'd have a heard time finding better for $5000, let alone $3500. Plus, it's carbon, uses disc brakes, AND comes tubeless ready with electronic shifting out of the box! Regarding new being shoved down the throat, I get it. I sell bikes for a living and just plain love bikes and bike riding, and I'm sick and tired of the 'marginal gains' marketing or the 'yeah, that $10k bike you bought last year, that doesn't cut it anymore' marketing. I would say that the technology from a macro perspective is always trending better and better. Do you need the Tarmac SL 8 if you already have an SL 7? Absolutely not. But if you don't have *anything* or haven't bought anything in 10 years, then yes, the newer stuff has been getting better year over year, and it'll amaze you how much better a 2023 bike feels over its 2018 or 2013 or 2008 counterpart. I have a 30+ year old Trek. One of the reasons I like riding it is because it reminds me of how great bikes have been for so long now. And also because it reminds me of how much better bikes have gotten since. Much much better. Did we *need* them to get better? No, if bike tech progress had stopped in '92, we'd all still be riding road bikes and loving it. But man, I sure am glad it didn't because a great modern bike, particularly carbon, is just an amazing thing to experience, and what a time to be alive. Not that I like *all* modern carbon bikes --I've ridden a couple that I had me jonesing to be back on my 32 year old Trek. But on the whole, yeah, they're great. |
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even regarding carbon, the lugged round tubes as i mentioned in the OP are the ones that do it for me most. I keep going back to the Look 585 / Ritchey Road Logic as top 2 contenders. The 6/4 Vortex compact would be rad but probably very difficult to find. i also like that look are pioneers in carbon bikes and relatively small compared to trek/specialized/giant yada yada Quote:
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IG Last edited by br0qn; 01-28-2024 at 01:08 PM. |
#37
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If I were looking for a bike to do the amount of mileage with the climbing you are describing, it would be a used disc brake frame that would fit as perfectly as possible. Without the right fit, no bike will feel great. My personal fav is Ti. I have a bit more confidence in a used Ti (or steel) than carbon.
I own 2 rim bikes, but if I’m coming down a hill at speed, and it’s a bit wet, I am more secure on disc. Disc will also let you go to a wider tire. My plan would be to find the right sized frame, and stalk,EBay or wherever for a used disc Moots, Seven, Dean or whomever shows up first with the right geo at the right price. |
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I understand and empathize with your desire to support smaller builders and companies, can't argue with you there. Sadly, in my experience, it seems like the bigger companies simply make much better bikes when it comes to carbon. I just don't think anyone not the size of Giant, Trek, and Specialized can afford to do their R&D and make hundreds of iterations until they reach 'perfect for now'. Steel seems to be different.
You mention not wanting to buy new at this point. As a first time road bike buyer who is relatively new to the activity, I think new is actually the way to go. If you find a *GOOD* shop, they will help you find the correct size, give you (or sell you) a fit so that the correct size fits you correctly, and most important you'll be able to test ride lots of bikes and find one that you like best. At the moment, you seem to be working based almost entirely on hearsay, with very little by way of experiential point of reference. This seems to be causing you to dismiss things offhand --things which you might actually enjoy if you tried them. The internet is largely a collection of echo chambers, and Paceline is largely an echo chamber of appreciation for exotic metal (steel, carbon) bikes. (Paceline is also so much more than that, but that is definitely one characteristic.) For every person here singing the praises of and lusting after a bike with a Christian name on its tubing, there are figuratively a thousand others who would do the same for the latest Gofast-aero-lightweight-carbon-miracle with a generic sounding brand name adorning its downtube (Giant, Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, etc). There are diehards in every niche who swear to the superiority of their object of choice, many of whom have never actually tried the supposedly inferior alternatives. In bikes, this goes both ways in many areas --metal to carbon, carbon to metal; Sram to Shimano to Campagnolo, then back again; Wahoo to Garmin, Garmin to Wahoo; this helmet, that helmet, these shoes, those shoes, these brakes, those brakes, so on and so forth. If the social aspects and visual aesthetics of small company metal appeal, then that's that. But like you said yourself, things like tubeless wheels, electronic shifting, disc brakes --try them, you might like them! Personally, I love how my steel bikes ride and I'm okay with rim brakes. They worked for ~100 years and they still work (with aluminum brake tracks). But disc brakes are so significantly superior that whenever someone poo poo's them I just think "You haven't actually tried them in any significant capacity, have you?" And while steel is great and I'm glad to own and frequently ride to of 'em, if I had to own only one bike, especially with your ambitions of riding 100 mile/10,000+ elevation days regularly, geez, no question, gimme a nice carbon TCR. |
#39
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If ease of maintenance is important to you, you can pretty much write off buying a new carbon bike from a large manufacturer. As nice as many of them are, almost every single road race bike in the most recent model years has been spec’d with thru-headset (and in many cases thru-stem) cable and hose routing.
This means removing cables and completely redoing routing if you need to replace a headset bearing. If the routing goes through the stem, you will also have to reroute cables if the stem or handlebars have to be changed. If the brakes are hydraulic, a bleed of both brakes will be required. So far this disease hasn’t infected gravel bikes… so far. |
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My "fast" bike is a Scott Foil. I don't think anyone who knows carbon technology would find the Scott engineers and designers lagging behind the big 3. By the way, even though the Foil is an aero race bike it has room for 30s (one of the benefits of disc brakes of course). Not trying to pick a fight; just pointing out this myth of the great R&D from corporations who spend alot on the marketing of their R&D |
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What I am trying to say is: you are on the right track, trust your instincts and stay on course. Whatever you do, I want you to remember one thing: focus on what's important. There are typically three levers that a cyclist can pull to change things up. Lever 1) Personal fitness, health, flexbility Lever 2) Environment, terrain, location, where they live and ride Lever 3) Equipment, latest technology ergonomics, weight, aero Lever 1 is arguably the hardest to pull off - it takes dedicated training, sacrifice, time on the saddle, miles in the legs, skills/ techniques, learning to draft and ride in the paceline, watching what you eat, keep the weight down, staying fit, stretching regularly and strengthening other parts of the body not covered by cycling. These take discipline and effort, not to mention getting older every year. Lever 2 may or may not always be in our control. Where we live and places we ride sometimes are limited by our occupation and who we work for, avaliable free time, family commitments, and the time/money we have to travel to the ideal location. Lever 3 is the low hanging fruit. The tendency is for people to pull on lever 3 a lot as a way to make up for the lack of lever 1 and 2 but i hope you can see that no amount of lever 3 can fully replace what's missing in 1 and 2 (sometimes it can help, for example, an ebike for an older cyclist or someone with lesser abilities). The truth is, you don't need a $7k bike to maximize your potential or to enjoy riding a bike in whatever terrain or reach whatever goals of your choosing. Seriously, you don't! There are many, many bikes under $3k or even much less that can meet any or all of your requirements. I should know because I have done it over the years simply by buying and trying out different used bikes being offered on the classifieds here or craigslist or eBay. I have kept my expenses pretty low and affordable by doing my own wrenching work, buying parts online when on sales and not chasing after the latest and greatest. That's not to say that i am a luddite or a retro-guy (btw calling names or labeling people this or that is not helpful, it's a sign of weakness) in fact I have made it a policy not to criticize or comment on something until I have tried it myself and I have. I constantly switch between bikes that are 5-10 years apart in terms of bike tech yet I don't find myself handicapped or missing out the fun. Far from it, I focus on what's important: the riding experience, my personal fitness, social interactions. The last thing I will say is, bike fit is a dynamic range not a fixed number. It's not static, it can change with time and your body. The goal is to keep it fluid and flexible, experiment yourself, be bold enough to try different things, you will get better at it with experience and when you are in tune with your body, as long as you get into the ball park or inside the fit window you are good. Whatever you do, don't lose the curiosity, sense of adventure, returning back to the basics every now and then, and be grateful that you are well and alive and able to enjoy this beautiful sport, it's a privilege. .
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🏻* Last edited by weisan; 01-31-2024 at 04:53 PM. |
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#43
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Saw the Look 585 on your list/photos of bikes that interest you. It's one of my two "never get rid of" frames. Exceptionally smooth ride, smoother than other carbon frames I've had, and I'm riding it with 25 mm tires, inflation in the 70's. Continental 5000s in 28 were too tight a fit for my comfort level, although they measure about 30 on the rim, and a true measured 28 might work fine.
I strongly agree with advice of getting a good fitting first, then see what frames have geometry that would work well for you. IF the Look 585 geometry would work well, lots of people absolutely love that frame. Having said all that, obviously the Santa Monica mountains have big descents to go with those big climbs. Have driven some of the canyon descents, got my attention from a cyclist's perspective. I've never owned a bike with disk brakes, and cyclists have of course been doing such descents with rim brakes forever, but riding those descents frequently might get me to think about disks. |
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OP- tons of good info/advice here for sure.. I would much of Baron Blubba says to heart.. while I LOVE buying used bikes as you can certainly get a lot of bike for the money, with the caveat "if it's the right size".. that is what a shop like Baron's would do for you it sounds like (never met Mike in person, but I like his style).. I have bought many used bikes based on what someone here or there told me is "my size".. and maybe there were, but I didn't have the experience of a good shop to help me fine tune that last bit of fit to make it perfect.. now that certainly depends on the shop for sure.. and, IMHO, fitters can be just as hit or miss on that as well..
anyway, Giants really are a fantastic bang for the buck, but if you are looking for mechanical, rim braked bikes, they are not for you as new.. if you are looking for rim brake road, I'm not really sure you need bigger than a true 28mm tire.. unless you are husky ( and you aren't at 135 of course) and need higher pressures (like me, but i still ride a comfy 28 around 80 psi), then maybe.. but I have often rode off pavement on 28s.. not chunky trail, but certainly dirt.. I guess what I'm saying is I wouldn't sleep on a mechanical, rim brake bike that fits well just because it only fits 28s.. (maybe I missed something in your original post on tire size, sorry if I did) certainly plenty of options out there, and that is often the problem..
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#45
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don't know about that particular Izalco Max (electronic), but the one that i have, 2017 mechanical, will fit a 28mm (measured).
whether it will have clearance that you, or other people are comfortable with is another question. currently the rear tire measures 26mm, and has more than enough clearance. 28mm will fit. i assume that they have the same clearance. i can take a picture with a 28mm tire/wheel installed https://imgur.com/a/X0PVnhJ the Look 585 will barely fit 28mm measured conti GP4k2 25mm on pacenti forza rim Last edited by Kingson; 01-31-2024 at 03:42 PM. |
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