If........

[dustyrider]

Neat...how about some kind of builder's camp/skool? Maybe one for paceliners, some kind of kick back to the forum... You know a true collaboration between builder(you) and dreamer(us). Of course I'm far from capable of affording something like this, but can see double the "worth" for the experience, and adds to the "soul" of a Serotta.

I imagine a csi with a 44mm headtube, drilled for electric, some would argue disc, but I'd disagree. You know just enough modern to raise a few feathers, without causing creaky crank sadness, and caliper brakes to stay retro grouchy!

[Climb01742]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Hey Ralph -

I hear you.

If I do it it would be for two reasons - the first being that, like Parris said here, to pay homage to the time, the place and most of all the people that helped me get my start. Secondly it would be really fun to build a few of these again. I built hundreds of them back in the day and miss using some of the more obscure skills needed to build them.

So in a way it would be a selfish exercise...........but if someone wanted one I think the two of us could both have fun with the project.

Thanks for your thoughts and input.

dave

Dave,

a. A very cool idea. Honoring your roots is awesome.

b. On a practical level, would the imagined frames perform/ride differently from the Kirk frames you build today? Would there be an on-the-road feel you'd be aiming to create/recreate? I ask, in part, because Dario built my wife a bike using one of his last Excell tube sets and details like a Campy double plate fork crown, and she raves about it, and I've always wished it was big enough so I could just ride it once to feel what an era-homage feels like. Do you have a 'feel' in mind for the frame?

c. If you do it, have fun!

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

I have access to Serotta decals but feel it would be wrong to use them. It would not be a Serotta any way you cut it. A Serotta was built in a certain place and time and both are now gone. It would not be a Serotta, nor would it really be a replica, it would be more of an homage.

If I can make it work out I'd like to build a VERY few homage bikes that are like the first Colorados I made while there in 1990...........1/2 fillet BB's and 1/2 fillet upper headtube/top tube joint, S bend stays, inverted double taper s-stays..........the full monty.

Fun stuff to think about on a cold winter day - we got about 8" of snow last night!

dave

This. Exactly this. Best of luck to you. I wish I could afford one of them.

[Ahneida Ride]

Dave

If you can get hold of the tubing, then you just may build the very last
CSI.

Kelly built the last factory CSI and since has built several in his
own shop (Serotta supplied the tubes/lugs/BB) at the request of Serotta.

The monster tube swagging box is still sitting there in the factory.
There is no staff there to use it.

My Best as always ....

[bikingshearer]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

Worst use of a bead-dazzler ever.


As for what to do with the stuff, anything you want. It is guaranteed to be cool, well-built and a joy to ride. it is also guaranteed to be beyond any budget I could ever cobble together (that is not a complaint, just an observation) so I would only be able to worship it from afar. Which I will.

[regularguy412]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Like this?

dave

Holy Crap! I could use that sticker. When I last had my 25th Anniversary CSI resprayed at Serotta, they didn't have ( or couldn't get ) any of those stickers. So mine now has a Made in USA sticker on the lower, front seat tube.

Mike in AR

[pbarry]

Originally Posted by Climb01742

Dave,

a. A very cool idea. Honoring your roots is awesome.

b. On a practical level, would the imagined frames perform/ride differently from the Kirk frames you build today? Would there be an on-the-road feel you'd be aiming to create/recreate? I ask, in part, because Dario built my wife a bike using one of his last Excell tube sets and details like a Campy double plate fork crown, and she raves about it, and I've always wished it was big enough so I could just ride it once to feel what an era-homage feels like. Do you have a 'feel' in mind for the frame?

c. If you do it, have fun!

I've test ridden a custom GF frame/bike I built with a 17cm stem and mtb seat post installed for my ride. It was rewarding to get an idea of ride quality and worth the time to find out. From all reports, Excell was the pinnacle of steel tubing for lightweight riders.

[metalheart]

I would call Dave Kirk and ask him to build me the Colorado I used to dream about having in the late 80's.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by Climb01742

Dave,

a. A very cool idea. Honoring your roots is awesome.

b. On a practical level, would the imagined frames perform/ride differently from the Kirk frames you build today? Would there be an on-the-road feel you'd be aiming to create/recreate? I ask, in part, because Dario built my wife a bike using one of his last Excell tube sets and details like a Campy double plate fork crown, and she raves about it, and I've always wished it was big enough so I could just ride it once to feel what an era-homage feels like. Do you have a 'feel' in mind for the frame?

c. If you do it, have fun!

Cool.

Yes I'm sure the homage bikes would ride differently than what I currently offer. I build with a lot of very light modern tubes that are much thinner than anything Serotta ever offered and this means that the homage bike would be a bit heavier and not quite as smooth on the road.

Much of the feel on a bike is dictated by the tube wall thickness - by far the biggest influence is diameter but after that wall thickness comes into play. Modern tubes like 953 can be so thin because the material is so strong and these thin main tubes are still plenty stiff but they transmit much less shock than the thicker tubes from even 10 years ago. Many folks think 'steel is steel' and that bikes made from modern materials will feel the same as the steel bike they rode way back in the day and that just isn't the way it is. It's still called steel but the ride is different and to my taste better now.

Your JKS uses a mix of 953 and 853 pro and I'll bet it doesn't feel much at all like a bike built of SL or SLX yet they are both steel.

So the difference between my current offerings and an homage bike would be many and the biggest change in feel would come from the difference in wall thickness.

Make sense?

dave

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by regularguy412

Holy Crap! I could use that sticker. When I last had my 25th Anniversary CSI resprayed at Serotta, they didn't have ( or couldn't get ) any of those stickers. So mine now has a Made in USA sticker on the lower, front seat tube.

Mike in AR

This is not a sticker but is a stick on metal head badge. I helped design the badge and they were made by 'Joe the badgeman' for Serotta. We had a few extras made and i've had one in my best for the past 20 years or so.

Do you still have the headbadge that came with the bike?

dave

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by dustyrider

Neat...how about some kind of builder's camp/skool? Maybe one for paceliners, some kind of kick back to the forum... You know a true collaboration between builder(you) and dreamer(us). Of course I'm far from capable of affording something like this, but can see double the "worth" for the experience, and adds to the "soul" of a Serotta.

I imagine a csi with a 44mm headtube, drilled for electric, some would argue disc, but I'd disagree. You know just enough modern to raise a few feathers, without causing creaky crank sadness, and caliper brakes to stay retro grouchy!

I dunno about this - a CSi is/was defined by a few different things IMO.........first was of course the materials (which not only dictate the ride but also the look) and next was the group of guys that made the bikes in a given place and time. I think if it wasn't made by those guys, in that building, with those parts then it's not a 'real' CSi. It might be every bit as nice a bike but by definition it's not a CSi.

So if you change the fundamental design of the bike with a big head tube and disc brakes it's even further away from a CSi and all you have at that point is a decal that says 'CSi' on it and not much more.

FWIW - I built about 60 lugged and filleted Serottas from here in Bozeman using Carl Strong's shop. Serotta sent me the parts and I turned them into framesets and sent them back. They were built by a guy who built about as many steel Serottas as anyone else ever has (yes me) so I certainly knew how they went together. They were made with the right stuff and were painted in the right place and had the right decals on them but in my mind they were not the same as a CSi made in NY. Not better, not worse, but not the same as they weren't made under the same circumstances.

I realize this might not make sense to others but to me a thing is defined by certain things and when you change any of those things it's not the same thing any more.

dave

[Asudef]

Is the CSi the evolution of the Colorado? I'm not fully aware of the differences in models.

Either way, I've always resonated most with "the best available with the traditions of the time" designs.

If it were up to me, carbon fork with 1 1/8" steerer and the best tubing available. I don't suppose stainless would be able to mate with the cast bb shell and dropouts.

[regularguy412]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

This is not a sticker but is a stick on metal head badge. I helped design the badge and they were made by 'Joe the badgeman' for Serotta. We had a few extras made and i've had one in my best for the past 20 years or so.

Do you still have the headbadge that came with the bike?

dave

My CSI came with just the Serotta 'S' decal no real 'head badge'. The decal that was not replaced was the two-tone (half and half reversed) 25th anniversary insignia that looked exactly like the badge in the pic-- except that it was done up in light/dark blues. The 'missing' decal was originally located just above the BB on the front of the seat tube. It's not such a huge deal, but I was kinda disappointed that my 25th anniversary bike no longer had the identifying mark.

Thanks for your input. I just thot I'd never see anything like that again, since it's been so long since the bike was originally built.

Thanks again,
Mike in AR

[pbarry]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

I dunno about this - a CSi is/was defined by a few different things IMO.........first was of course the materials (which not only dictate the ride but also the look) and next was the group of guys that made the bikes in a given place and time. I think if it wasn't made by those guys, in that building, with those parts then it's not a 'real' CSi. It might be every bit as nice a bike but by definition it's not a CSi.

So if you change the fundamental design of the bike with a big head tube and disc brakes it's even further away from a CSi and all you have at that point is a decal that says 'CSi' on it and not much more.

FWIW - I built about 60 lugged and filleted Serottas from here in Bozeman using Carl Strong's shop. Serotta sent me the parts and I turned them into framesets and sent them back. They were built by a guy who built about as many steel Serottas as anyone else ever has (yes me) so I certainly knew how they went together. They were made with the right stuff and were painted in the right place and had the right decals on them but in my mind they were not the same as a CSi made in NY. Not better, not worse, but not the same as they weren't made under the same circumstances.

I realize this might not make sense to others but to me a thing is defined by certain things and when you change any of those things it's not the same thing any more.

dave

Big props, Dave. A genuine manifesto written by a philosopher and artisan.

[fogrider]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Cool.

Yes I'm sure the homage bikes would ride differently than what I currently offer. I build with a lot of very light modern tubes that are much thinner than anything Serotta ever offered and this means that the homage bike would be a bit heavier and not quite as smooth on the road.

Much of the feel on a bike is dictated by the tube wall thickness - by far the biggest influence is diameter but after that wall thickness comes into play. Modern tubes like 953 can be so thin because the material is so strong and these thin main tubes are still plenty stiff but they transmit much less shock than the thicker tubes from even 10 years ago. Many folks think 'steel is steel' and that bikes made from modern materials will feel the same as the steel bike they rode way back in the day and that just isn't the way it is. It's still called steel but the ride is different and to my taste better now.

Your JKS uses a mix of 953 and 853 pro and I'll bet it doesn't feel much at all like a bike built of SL or SLX yet they are both steel.

So the difference between my current offerings and an homage bike would be many and the biggest change in feel would come from the difference in wall thickness.

Make sense?

dave

Dave, I'm sure someone will want a "homage" frame/bike, but what would they do with it? and would you put kirk decals on it? what would you call it? would it ridden on ice cream rides?

Every weekend, how many lost souls are rolling on carbon bikes that weigh under 18 pounds, some under 16 pounds. why not take those parts and weld them up with 953 and 853 tubing and build a ride that is as good as anything else you build today? sure make something that looks like a CSI or a colorado, but it should be a great riding bike that someone would want to ride hard today! wouldn't that really pay homage to those parts?