The New Yorker article on Grant Petersen and Rivendell

[redir]

A lot of comments that, I like competitive riding and at the same time appreciate Grant for what he does. The thing is he doesn't appreciate you for what you do. In fact he thinks you are a clown. That's how toxic personalities work. And I get it. Frank Zappa was a real narcissistic arse but I still love him too.

This sums it up for me:

Richard Sachs, a master frame builder, told me. “You’re buying Grant. You’re buying Grant’s intellectual property, and his forty or fifty years of staying true to his belief system.”

That's it in a nutshell and if that's what you want that is what you get. And I totally get it. As a craft person, guitar maker, myself I have my certain way of doing things. Any of the hand full of highly successful guitar makers in this country do and that is what you are buying. You are buying their design philosophy and experience and a bit of their, in many cases like Grant, opinionated personalities. You just happen to get a bike or a guitar with it.

[Xrslug]

As a counterpoint, I worked for Grant for a hot minute 20 years ago — in my experience he is not a toxic personality. I don’t agree with everything he does or says by any means, but I don’t believe he thinks anyone is a clown just because he or she likes racing or just competitive riding. As I mentioned in my earlier post, some of the people he works / worked with for years and respects greatly are racers. For that matter, he respects Richard Sachs a ton, and Richard Sachs races, builds race bikes, and actually runs a racing team.

Originally Posted by redir

A lot of comments that, I like competitive riding and at the same time appreciate Grant for what he does. The thing is he doesn't appreciate you for what you do. In fact he thinks you are a clown. That's how toxic personalities work. And I get it. Frank Zappa was a real narcissistic arse but I still love him too.

This sums it up for me:

Richard Sachs, a master frame builder, told me. “You’re buying Grant. You’re buying Grant’s intellectual property, and his forty or fifty years of staying true to his belief system.”

That's it in a nutshell and if that's what you want that is what you get. And I totally get it. As a craft person, guitar maker, myself I have my certain way of doing things. Any of the hand full of highly successful guitar makers in this country do and that is what you are buying. You are buying their design philosophy and experience and a bit of their, in many cases like Grant, opinionated personalities. You just happen to get a bike or a guitar with it.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by Xrslug

As a counterpoint, I worked for Grant for a hot minute 20 years ago — in my experience he is not a toxic personality. I don’t agree with everything he does or says by any means, but I don’t believe he thinks anyone is a clown just because he or she likes racing or just competitive riding. As I mentioned in my earlier post, some of the people he works / worked with for years and respects greatly are racers. For that matter, he respects Richard Sachs a ton, and Richard Sachs races, builds race bikes, and actually runs a racing team.

I agree with this.. having been around the Riv fold since 2008ish, I've talked to/emailed Grant a few different times and I never felt he was anything close to toxic.. he will certainly stick to his opinions, but, I feel, at the end of the, he knows we all just riding a bike for fun (at some level) and aren't that different..

heck, one of his longest employees and head mechanic, Mark, is a racer/go fast guy and the reason they did the Legolas back in the day (which I would love to find one and try it!)..

[p nut]

I also agree Grant is nowhere near toxic. Ironically, that award goes to folks that make bikes most folks ride. ie Sinyard.

I’ve had the opportunity to talk to Grant a few times on the phone and although I didn’t agree with with everything he believes, he was knowledgeable, very quirky and interesting, and most importantly, very respectful.

Similar vibe when I’ve spoken to Jeff Jones.

[kiwisimon]

good journalism. Thanks for the link.
My racing MTB was an MB1.
Did get a shout out from Ned Overend when he saw it amongst a gaggle of GT RTS and Specialized Stump Jumpers at an event here in Japan.
I still have an RB-1 frame in my pile of frames.
Grant deserves respect, he has a philosophy and that has worked to employ multiple people and give joy to thousands. I'm somewhere in between Luddite and early adopter. Trending towards the latter as my motor slows down.
Bikes are fun. How people choose to have that fun is up to them.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Xrslug

As a counterpoint, I worked for Grant for a hot minute 20 years ago — in my experience he is not a toxic personality. I don’t agree with everything he does or says by any means, but I don’t believe he thinks anyone is a clown just because he or she likes racing or just competitive riding. As I mentioned in my earlier post, some of the people he works / worked with for years and respects greatly are racers. For that matter, he respects Richard Sachs a ton, and Richard Sachs races, builds race bikes, and actually runs a racing team.

I guess that's what makes him complicated. He makes snide comments about riders in spandex but I guess if you get to know him it's a persona. Again, I get it. It's old school craftsman/apprentice type working class mentality. I don't agree with it but I get it because I have experienced it. He is what they might call, if there actually was a guild here, a master builder. He's an ornery one, but if you want to work for him you need to shut up and learn, and if you want to buy from him then you are not only buying the product that he produces but you are buying his decades of experience and his own personal design philosophy.

Again, as a guitar maker, which I see many similarities to, I totally get that. There are modern improvements to guitar design But the old masters will have nothing to do with them as will their clients who are dedicated to the old world design philosophy, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Mr.Appa]

I'll say his internet/online comments can often come across as snide or rude, but when in person it doesn't come across that way, maybe its the tone ? I've had many a conversations with Grant and even competed with him on some poem memorizing contests (which is how I was able to afford a second Riv for my wife), so I truly believe he doesn't try to shove his ethos down folks' throats, but instead just tries to be a counter-weight to the performance side of the cycling world. I've disagreed with him on many things, and the only heated argument we've had is me complaining about his long-stay bikes not fitting well in the amtrak bike cars!

Regardless, as someone who owns a riv appaloosa with long stays that gets ridden more miles on my commute than my swanky DA'd Ritchey road logic on my ever decreasing free time - I'm just happy that both spectrums of bicycles exist.

I do wish more folks would just ride their bikes for pleasure and for the jaunt to the grocery store or picnic in the park or dropping kiddos off at work, as I'm sure most folks here would concur with. And that's kinda the main thing I agree with Grant on, just more folks experiencing the joy of cycling without the pain and pressure that the elitism of cycling tends to attract and foster and gets marketed to (anecdata). Kudos to New Yorker for writing this, it was a fun read.

[KonaSS]

Honestly - I think it's all the poem memorizing contests, and the glorification of the elite few who can memorize quickly that is ruining reading. Can't we just sit under a tree by ourselves and read a poem?

[benb]

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

As much as I wish that cycling could be sheer joyriding all the time, I cannot deny that there is a competitive spirit that sometimes itches and that sometimes is pleasant to scratch. That competition manifests internally (race myself) and externally (ride with others). I have no desire to beat other people down on a bike, but I do like riding fast with other people and trying to ride faster than other people, just for the fun and games of it. It's human nature, and I'm not sure it's healthy to try and 'help' to eliminate it.

Well said. I identify with this. Yesterday was as much of a Grant centric riding day as I can have.

But then I still catch myself getting competitive with the car drivers. “Ok you just blew by me when you only have 50 yards of open road in front of me. Now watch me rip past you when you get stuck in the traffic jam I can see but you somehow can’t process.”

When I ride to work I essentially race the time in my head it takes to drive the car. Strava says the car never saves more than 10 minutes round trip and costs 3kg of CO2.

[Talrand]

3 pages of discussion and it all boils down to:
"Grant is a somewhat respectful person as long as you ignore all he's saying and writing and buy his bikes"
Not a very compelling argument in his favor.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by Talrand

3 pages of discussion and it all boils down to:
"Grant is a somewhat respectful person as long as you ignore all he's saying and writing and buy his bikes"
Not a very compelling argument in his favor.

Hmm, no.. not at all.. pretty sure you missed all of what folks who have actually interacted with Grant has said.. buy you obviously have an issue with Grant, so no worries..

[lorenbike]

Originally Posted by redir

A lot of comments that, I like competitive riding and at the same time appreciate Grant for what he does. The thing is he doesn't appreciate you for what you do. In fact he thinks you are a clown. That's how toxic personalities work. And I get it. Frank Zappa was a real narcissistic arse but I still love him too.

This sums it up for me:

Richard Sachs, a master frame builder, told me. “You’re buying Grant. You’re buying Grant’s intellectual property, and his forty or fifty years of staying true to his belief system.”

That's it in a nutshell and if that's what you want that is what you get. And I totally get it. As a craft person, guitar maker, myself I have my certain way of doing things. Any of the hand full of highly successful guitar makers in this country do and that is what you are buying. You are buying their design philosophy and experience and a bit of their, in many cases like Grant, opinionated personalities. You just happen to get a bike or a guitar with it.

Not sure about that… I have a family member who bought a Riv. Never was a biker, wanted a decent bike to commute and ride on bike paths for fun and exercise, especially being close to retirement age. Pretty sure they never read any of the blogs or content on the Riv website, or had any idea who Grant is but loved their store in Walnut Creek and put a deposit down on the spot after testing a bike. That bike gets used almost everyday and it’s perfect.

[Xrslug]

Originally Posted by Talrand

3 pages of discussion and it all boils down to:
"Grant is a somewhat respectful person as long as you ignore all he's saying and writing and buy his bikes"
Not a very compelling argument in his favor.

I’d say the opposite. Engage with what he’s saying and writing, don’t ignore it. Maybe try out some of his suggestions. They might expand your bike experience for the better. Or maybe they won’t work for you (some work for me sometimes and some don’t). You definitely don’t need to buy his bikes. Either way, he doesn’t think you’re a jerk if you disagree with him.

[mstateglfr]

Depending on your own views, the dude portrays himself as a clown/martyr/inspirer/heel/savior.

I view him and everything his company sells as an overall benefit to cycling, but also largely irrelevant due to the made up crap he constantly claims as fact, and the dogmatic approach to cycling the 'real' way.


My Black Mountain MC steel frame and fork is pretty much what he advocates, yet it wasn't some revolutionary approach that I took to build it...it was actually quite inexpensive.
After I decommissioned it as my gravel bike, I put 3x9 shifting using barend shifters from 20+ years ago, an xt shifter from 25 years ago, a Sakae crank from nearly 40 years ago, some SunTour cantis from 35 years ago, and turned it into a commute/errands bike that I also sometimes take on family rides.
It's simple, it's reliable, it's steel, it's cabled and rim braking, and I don't ride it for speed or competition.

...but I wear a helmet and I don't ride it as an angry protest to other styles of riding. I can't imagine having contempt for how others enjoy riding.

[lorenbike]

Originally Posted by Xrslug

I’d say the opposite. Engage with what he’s saying and writing, don’t ignore it. Maybe try out some of his suggestions. They might expand your bike experience for the better. Or maybe they won’t work for you (some work for me sometimes and some don’t). You definitely don’t need to buy his bikes. Either way, he doesn’t think you’re a jerk if you disagree with him.

I don’t own a Riv either but have a cheap commuter bike in similar Riv style with down tube shifters, triple, flat pedals and a basket. At times I’ve gotten pretty burnt out with biking and there’s something to be said about hopping on the bike with Crocs and gym shorts, a tool bag and snacks strapped in the basket and just go for a few mile cruise around. It brings me the same joy and reminds me why I got into cycling as a kid. You certainly don’t need Rivendell to experience that but much of what that article discusses I feel is a nice reminder of the utility of bikes beyond racing and Strava.