First Road Bike Ruminations - point me in the right direction

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by ChainNoise

It doesn't sound like you are going for a custom geometry bike as pointed out in the OP...

..but for those suggesting go custom, I'd really stray away from that until you have your fit exactly where you want it.

I also think you're being way too picky right off the bat. You've only ridden 1 bike on the road. It took me quite a few bikes to settle on only 2 bikes that I will never get rid of. I, too, was a little obsessed with bottom bracket stiffness. 1 of the bikes I'll never get rid of it the second softest bottom bracket area I've experienced. I wouldn't quite consider it noodly, but it absolutely flexes there for sure.

What I'd be doing in your situation is finding a frame or two that are well under your budget and several years old. Start building and trying them out. Steel, CF, aluminum, maybe titanium if you can find a deal. They are out there. Don't like it, or get bored? Strip the bike down to a frame, sell the frame, and try something else. Get a size smaller than you're used to, and see how you like riding with a larger stem and more seatpost showing. Try bikes with vastly different geometries (straight up race geo vs relaxed, endurance geo) and determine what youd prefer. This is how I honed in exactly what I want in a bike.

**Disclaimer - if you aren't careful, this is a really easy way to blow a significant amount of money.

This is really great guidance and what I would do too. No22 is lovely (earlier seconded recommendation) but I’d just get something used with Ultegra or 105 level components or equivalent campy for around $1000-2000 and ride the crap out of it. Then you’ll have a great idea of what you want and fit and can go wild on the next round.

[br0qn]

thanks everyone, so many good insights and suggestions

Originally Posted by jimcav

Does "LA" mean the state or the city?

of what you listed, I'd choose the Ritchey. all obviously IMHO

thanks for your input! la = los angeles hence the at hand Santa Monica Mountains. not so concerned with resale but instead value...diminishing returns and all that.
the Ritchey does tick a lot of boxes for sure and there's no real reason to mark it off the list

Originally Posted by avalonracing

I had a Merlin CR. Fantastic bike which I sold to a friend (I should have kept it). He has been running 28c tires with it. I had the 3/2.5 version in large with a huge downtube (tubing was size-specific). I read that the 3/2.5 is a smoother ride than the 6/4.

would love to find one or even an Agilis

Originally Posted by gbcoupe

The Dyesys is a wonderful ride on 25's. It's probably the best all around bike I have, factoring comfort, handling and weight. And I have a few bikes. Couldn't tell you how many century rides I've done on it. Get the best fit and value you can, but I wouldn't rule out the Dyesys for tire size.

right on, cheers!

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

No22 Great Divide has your name all over it.

Most good road bikes meet your general criteria though. Remember the grand tour riders log big miles day after day, and bikes just keep getting better every year.

You should add to the criteria a decent way to carry some gear. If you want to do big long unsupported rides regularly, the ability to carry some real food, enough water and some layers is a good idea, especially if you're regularly traversing from sea level into the mountains. If you ride small frames like I do, some of the modern bikepacking bags just wont work because of space limitations, just something to consider.

I admire your enthusiasm and plans for the future. Wish you the best luck on the journey. Most of us have been happily riding the wrong bike for the job for years and the reality is you can make most any bike do the job you want it to if you bring the legs and lungs

a custom Ti would be amazing i'm sure, but far out of the budget which i didn't mention really. I don't have a number in my head really but it's not going to be a $5.5k frameset =]
and i like where your head is at regarding bikebags not fitting the smaller triangles! certainly ought to be a consideration.
re making any bike work - totally. that is what i've been doing on the voodoo ... i feel like some of the other commenters maybe didn't click the link in my OP so i'll put a photo of the bike i've been riding here

Originally Posted by nmrt

I disagree. In my experience tire pressure and volume does not trump frame material when it is made by excellent Ti bike manufacturers. A nice riding bike (rim brakes and 1 1/8 HT) like the Merlin Extralight or a Serotta Legend or a Bingham Built or a Desalvo will ride spectacularly well with 25 mm tires.

A well made Ti bike is a well made Ti bike. It's quality will shine even with 25 mm tires. Yes, will the bike ride more plush with 30 mm tires. Possibly. But would I desire that plushness? For me, no. The bike will already be plush enough with 25 mm tires.

never thought about it really as one trumping the other. i often see the arguments of

X > Y

and the arguments never take into account the full picture. your 25 tires ride nice but there are 98 other variables contributing to that nice ride (yes you mentioned nice Ti frames but then there are other factors eh?) and that is excluding your biases. but anyway, i asked for input from all of you here with some order of magnitude more saddle time than i and i appreciate your PoV

Originally Posted by Jdm

I recommend focusing on two criteria for a first road bike:

1. Tire clearance for 32mm and running tubeless for lower air pressure. I think it's game-changing for comfort, speed, and flats.

2. You want to look at it every day because it's so beautiful. Make it a special bike.

32! that is what i'm currently on the bike above and it's nice, for sure , i just don't expect to find a rim brake road bike with the clearance... maybe i shoulding right off disc brakes.

re making it special - good advice! sometimes i come across a frame and i like so much about it and i think "it ticks all the boxes! ... but it looks heinous..."

for sure i want to want to look at it

Originally Posted by Peter P.

Get the Ritchey Road Logic. Budget price, high quality, great reputation, fits 28's.

... i know, it seems so simple, why complicate this?

Originally Posted by acorn_user

This may be a bit counter intuitive, but I would look for a recent (or new) Specialized Allez. These are really nice riding bikes, and you can probably find one with Tiagra or 105. I had one a few years ago, and I just bought one for my son. I really enjoy how they ride.

Once you start to get used to riding a road bike, you may change what you like. If you only spent $1000, you won't mind as much

well noted. really hunting a frame to build, i like a project and have much of a group ready but ya, could easily find a complete and change to my liking. I'll start checking out some allez's

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

This is pure grumpy old man myth on so many levels. I've owned dozens of bikes, rim and disc, and ridden dozens more. My current main ride is a nicely built Ritchey Logic, rim brake version. It's a great bike, no doubt. However, it is objectively less of a smooth ride than any of the modern carbon bikes, rim or disc, shallow rimmed or deep-rimmed (I have experience up to 65mm deep) that I've owned in the past 10 years or so. These bikes include the last three generations of Giant TCR's, Defy's, Propels, Revolts, as well as Specialized Tarmacs and Roubaixs, Enve Mog and Melee. Among others that I've test ridden. All with 25mm - 28mm tires. The vaunted 'springiness' of steel does not equal 'smooth comfort'. The springiness is the feel, or the response, coming from the bb area of the frame as you put power into it.
I get the idea that some people online tried carbon bikes 30 years ago and dismissed them. The same people probably never actually tried disc brakes, but dismissed them. Or perhaps tried an equivalently early days disc brake bike that was designed by a manufacturer that had no idea what they were doing at the time.

If you prefer a rim brake bike, great --goodness knows sometimes I do too, hence recently building up a couple of them and riding them thousands of miles. But good lord does the perpetuation of that 'carbon is rough, disc brakes are rough, deep dish wheels are rough' upset me. (Can you tell?)

From a performance perspective, both in terms of comfort and speed, a good carbon bike, which you can certainly get with your $7000 budget, will be smoother, feel more symbiotically responsive with the rider, and feel and be faster. And disc brakes will stop ten times better. Rim brakes are quite good enough in most situations. Disc brakes are quite a whole 'nother level of stopping power, modulation and confidence. And please ride a set of Enve 4.5 disc brake wheels and tell me that they are not smooth enough, probably because of their deep profile and being overbuilt to accommodate discs.

perfect! i have zero practical knowledge of this stuff and am glad you take the other side of this argument and open my mind a bit more. part of my initial desire to stay away from carbon (though i've come around on carbon) and discs is because i've worked in the fashion industry for a long time where there is something "new" shoved down your throat every 6 months for the sake of revenue, so i've approached this bike thing looking through the same lens and a healthy dose of skepticism and i look at the 2nd hand bike market and see these perfectly fine looking rejects that have been eschewed in favor of next years model, and that is something i want to capitalize on. then, bikes are technology where clothes aren't exactly, and i need to take that into consideration. it just doesn't help that the bike industry is also another industry of fashion. wiz bang doo dads, you know?

re the $7k budget - no idea where that number came from! it's probably less than half that all in.

so... let's say discs breaks are on the table - what should i hunt? (open the floodgates)

new criteria becomes
_sloping TT - which is basically a moot point considering the following
_mechanical (no e-shift)
_30mm+ tire clearance
_2nd hand, not custom, any material

Originally Posted by giordana93

congrats to the OP for getting into the wonderful world of road bikes and stirring up the hive of discussion about various frame materials, tire size debates, yada yada. I am in the camp of putting all that in the background as you focus on a bike that FITS: both now as a burgeoning rider and in the future as a bike you can grow into. For many people this progression will involve finding what kind of reach and drop to the bar best suits your fitness and riding style (think long and easy vs fast and furious or compromise between the 2). Some of the pictured bikes have massive drop, others not so much. If you have average proportions (long vs short legs, arms, torso, etc), find a frame where your seat height is about even with the stem height when it is at the medium or slightly higher position (or with stem at positive rise). This should be high enough to start with room to go down after if you choose. Debates about tire size and pressure or fork springiness mean nothing if your position isn't working or is un-achievable because you bought a bike based on looks and specs while ignoring more important numbers of stack, reach, and appropriate seat tube angle (usually the latter will be within a normal range but there are outliers)

all well noted. i'm riding a bike (pic above) that isn't 100% dialed in fit but feels good overall and i think i know what i need to address and i plan to see a bike fitter, prior to another purchase, in hopes of getting some numbers and help me narrow my search.

funny talking about fit though, i just got back from a ride and a guy rode up next to me and asked if the bike was mine or borrowed because i looked stretched out. Struck me as odd as I feel a bit cramped even and have wanted to bring my saddle forward a hair and add 1cm to my stem... anyway, all the more reason to get fitted.

Originally Posted by vqdriver

Finding a race oriented bike with clearance for 30+ and rim brakes is tough.
Methinks a caad13 checks a lot of boxes

right on - without know anything about the recent caads, what's the 13 got on a 12?

Originally Posted by raisinberry777

Great bike but won't fit a 28. I have fitted some 28mm Continental Grand Sport race tyres just to test and there is less clearance than I am comfortable with for actual riding (under 2mm). Ridiculously cheap though - could probably find a frameset for $500 or so.

kills me that bike won't clear the tires, looks so good! even if i opened up and accepted disc brakes, the new izalco's don't do it for me at all in the looks department.

whats tire clerance on a 2017 izalco max disc though ?

and as you said, i found a 2015 complete for under $1k and a 2014 team frameset for $325!

Originally Posted by NHAero

My 2016 new to me Supersix Evo Hi-Mod might be a good example of an entry road bike for you that fits your specs. I am finding it surprisingly smooth, and I'm a lightweight like you. I'm running Agilests that measure out just under 24mm but the frameset will easily take larger tires. Very nice handling (doesn’t have the curious slacked out front end of the CAAD13), builds very light, rim brake mechanical.

i've seen some hi-mods i like the look of, guess i need to figure out at what year the tire clearance opens up... if it does

Originally Posted by buddybikes

Have a Carver or similar budget ti bike made for you, it will match your needs 100% and have a nice life. Everything else is a compromise in some way (except perhaps for a magical Independent Fabrications bike I found in classifieds for friend of mine)

had a quick look at carver - those are cool, i think i'd probably go for a blackheart if i went the brand new ti/disc brake route as they're local. though not sure if they do a mechanical version

Originally Posted by ChainNoise

It doesn't sound like you are going for a custom geometry bike as pointed out in the OP...

..but for those suggesting go custom, I'd really stray away from that until you have your fit exactly where you want it.

I also think you're being way too picky right off the bat. You've only ridden 1 bike on the road. It took me quite a few bikes to settle on only 2 bikes that I will never get rid of. I, too, was a little obsessed with bottom bracket stiffness. 1 of the bikes I'll never get rid of it the second softest bottom bracket area I've experienced. I wouldn't quite consider it noodly, but it absolutely flexes there for sure.

What I'd be doing in your situation is finding a frame or two that are well under your budget and several years old. Start building and trying them out. Steel, CF, aluminum, maybe titanium if you can find a deal. They are out there. Don't like it, or get bored? Strip the bike down to a frame, sell the frame, and try something else. Get a size smaller than you're used to, and see how you like riding with a larger stem and more seatpost showing. Try bikes with vastly different geometries (straight up race geo vs relaxed, endurance geo) and determine what youd prefer. This is how I honed in exactly what I want in a bike.

**Disclaimer - if you aren't careful, this is a really easy way to blow a significant amount of money.

that is pretty much my train of thought exactly - thread title is first road bike , not forever road bike. i'm generally of the mind "buy it once" whenever i can and am willing to cough up $ for that one-time purchase. but i don't suspect that's possible in this scenario, and as i said in the OP, nuance is fun, and i want to try things to find what ultimately will suit me.

as for being picky - it's so easy to get overwhelmed, so many bikes! just trying to narrow the focus by picking a few things i think matter. they may not stick, maybe they shouldn't be "non-negotiables" but targets or considerations.

I did also say this needs to be "the one" but only for now, im sure before long i'll find reason enough to have more than one for different occasions / rides / etc.

appreciate that advice!

Originally Posted by 72gmc

I’m in the fit first camp. Ritchey, Specialized Allez, Trek, C’dale, and Giant come to mind when I think of standard geometries that could be good platforms for learning what you like. I’d be most tempted by Ritchey myself, and I’d also look at Ritte because I have so much respect for Tom Kellogg’s input on their geometries.

the ritte's are cool, and again local. i've thought about them but nothing 2nd hand hitting the market yet and i wrote them off because disc brakes... seems i really ought to reconsider discs to open my options and just deal with hydraulic maintenance and embrace relevant tech =]
and again the Ritchey does seem to do all of the things in my OP and for relatively little money.

Originally Posted by Alistair

Just going to repeat what others have already said…

Fit is paramount. Check the ETT, reach, and stack for the bikes you’re considering and make sure they’re similar to what you’re riding now (assuming that fits you well). Some of the bikes you linked look like race bikes - which often means a long/low fit (great for racing, maybe not for hilly centuries).

Frame material doesn’t really matter - any of the bikes you’re looking at are high quality and should ride just fine.

I’ve always like the looks of the Ritchey (simple, clean) but they’re a bit long/low for me.

Since you have some Litespeeds in mind, maybe consider some Lynskeys as well.

well noted. yes i put a bunch of racey set-ups in there then said i wanted a single bike to do it all... perhaps incongruent and i should weight the training & centuries more than the occasional event. i do want to get in on some of the faster local group rides here and then i suspect racier will be a +

going to have to strike a balance before i have to open up having 2 road bikes for different purposes.

[KonaSS]

Reading thru this thread the bike that immediately comes to mind is a Specialized Tarmac SL6.

It seems like you might want a bike that isn't run of the mill. And that is where this recommendation might fall short. But it ticks some many boxes.

And sure, everyone loves to bag on Specialized. But also everyone who has ridden an SL6 talks about what a great riding bike it is.

[NHAero]

Tire clearance opened up on 2016 Supersix Evo Hi-Mod and the 2017 non-Hi-Mod.

[Baron Blubba]

A previous poster said that it's hard to find a race bike that will accept 30mm tires. On the contrary, virtually every race bike that has come out in the last 5 years, and possibly further back than that, will accept 30mm tires.
Giant TCR? 32. New Propel? 30. Defy? 38/40. Enve Melee? 38/40. Tarmac SL8? Specialized says 32, can probably go 34. New Madone? 30. Even the new Ritchey Logic fits 30's!

Anyway, if you've got half of that arbitrary number of $7000, this is the bike. Or this one.

You'd have a heard time finding better for $5000, let alone $3500. Plus, it's carbon, uses disc brakes, AND comes tubeless ready with electronic shifting out of the box!

Regarding new being shoved down the throat, I get it. I sell bikes for a living and just plain love bikes and bike riding, and I'm sick and tired of the 'marginal gains' marketing or the 'yeah, that $10k bike you bought last year, that doesn't cut it anymore' marketing.
I would say that the technology from a macro perspective is always trending better and better. Do you need the Tarmac SL 8 if you already have an SL 7? Absolutely not. But if you don't have *anything* or haven't bought anything in 10 years, then yes, the newer stuff has been getting better year over year, and it'll amaze you how much better a 2023 bike feels over its 2018 or 2013 or 2008 counterpart.
I have a 30+ year old Trek. One of the reasons I like riding it is because it reminds me of how great bikes have been for so long now. And also because it reminds me of how much better bikes have gotten since. Much much better. Did we *need* them to get better? No, if bike tech progress had stopped in '92, we'd all still be riding road bikes and loving it. But man, I sure am glad it didn't because a great modern bike, particularly carbon, is just an amazing thing to experience, and what a time to be alive.
Not that I like *all* modern carbon bikes --I've ridden a couple that I had me jonesing to be back on my 32 year old Trek. But on the whole, yeah, they're great.

[br0qn]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

Reading thru this thread the bike that immediately comes to mind is a Specialized Tarmac SL6.

It seems like you might want a bike that isn't run of the mill. And that is where this recommendation might fall short. But it ticks some many boxes.

And sure, everyone loves to bag on Specialized. But also everyone who has ridden an SL6 talks about what a great riding bike it is.

i was also looking at those, they check a lot of boxes, but as you've picked up on i have a tendency to steer clear of the ubiquitous

Originally Posted by NHAero

Tire clearance opened up on 2016 Supersix Evo Hi-Mod and the 2017 non-Hi-Mod.

gotcha, might add it to the alerts then.

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

Anyway, if you've got half of that arbitrary number of $7000, this is the bike. Or this one.

You'd have a heard time finding better for $5000, let alone $3500. Plus, it's carbon, uses disc brakes, AND comes tubeless ready with electronic shifting out of the box!

i appreciate the link. but all of those things are what i'm actually trying to stay away from in regards to disk, tubeless and electronic shifting. again, no first hand experience with these things but ease of maintenance is a big one for me and i'm not yet convinced on tubeless though i probably well could be. electronic shifting however...ehh that's the hardest one for me to swallow but who knows, i need to try it, and everything else for that matter, before having a valid opinion.

even regarding carbon, the lugged round tubes as i mentioned in the OP are the ones that do it for me most. I keep going back to the Look 585 / Ritchey Road Logic as top 2 contenders. The 6/4 Vortex compact would be rad but probably very difficult to find. i also like that look are pioneers in carbon bikes and relatively small compared to trek/specialized/giant yada yada

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

Regarding new being shoved down the throat, I get it. I sell bikes for a living and just plain love bikes and bike riding, and I'm sick and tired of the 'marginal gains' marketing or the 'yeah, that $10k bike you bought last year, that doesn't cut it anymore' marketing.
I would say that the technology from a macro perspective is always trending better and better. Do you need the Tarmac SL 8 if you already have an SL 7? Absolutely not. But if you don't have *anything* or haven't bought anything in 10 years, then yes, the newer stuff has been getting better year over year, and it'll amaze you how much better a 2023 bike feels over its 2018 or 2013 or 2008 counterpart.
I have a 30+ year old Trek. One of the reasons I like riding it is because it reminds me of how great bikes have been for so long now. And also because it reminds me of how much better bikes have gotten since. Much much better. Did we *need* them to get better? No, if bike tech progress had stopped in '92, we'd all still be riding road bikes and loving it. But man, I sure am glad it didn't because a great modern bike, particularly carbon, is just an amazing thing to experience, and what a time to be alive.
Not that I like *all* modern carbon bikes --I've ridden a couple that I had me jonesing to be back on my 32 year old Trek. But on the whole, yeah, they're great.

that makes sense and it's good to know you're in the industry, that gives perspective. one day down the road i would love to walk into a bike shop and buy/order something new off the floor. but it likely won't be from one of the mega brands. I love to support small business, makers, independents, etc when possible... hence the stelbl dream.

[uber]

If I were looking for a bike to do the amount of mileage with the climbing you are describing, it would be a used disc brake frame that would fit as perfectly as possible. Without the right fit, no bike will feel great. My personal fav is Ti. I have a bit more confidence in a used Ti (or steel) than carbon.
I own 2 rim bikes, but if I’m coming down a hill at speed, and it’s a bit wet, I am more secure on disc. Disc will also let you go to a wider tire.
My plan would be to find the right sized frame, and stalk,EBay or wherever for a used disc Moots, Seven, Dean or whomever shows up first with the right geo at the right price.

[Baron Blubba]

I understand and empathize with your desire to support smaller builders and companies, can't argue with you there. Sadly, in my experience, it seems like the bigger companies simply make much better bikes when it comes to carbon. I just don't think anyone not the size of Giant, Trek, and Specialized can afford to do their R&D and make hundreds of iterations until they reach 'perfect for now'. Steel seems to be different.

You mention not wanting to buy new at this point. As a first time road bike buyer who is relatively new to the activity, I think new is actually the way to go. If you find a *GOOD* shop, they will help you find the correct size, give you (or sell you) a fit so that the correct size fits you correctly, and most important you'll be able to test ride lots of bikes and find one that you like best. At the moment, you seem to be working based almost entirely on hearsay, with very little by way of experiential point of reference. This seems to be causing you to dismiss things offhand --things which you might actually enjoy if you tried them. The internet is largely a collection of echo chambers, and Paceline is largely an echo chamber of appreciation for exotic metal (steel, carbon) bikes. (Paceline is also so much more than that, but that is definitely one characteristic.) For every person here singing the praises of and lusting after a bike with a Christian name on its tubing, there are figuratively a thousand others who would do the same for the latest Gofast-aero-lightweight-carbon-miracle with a generic sounding brand name adorning its downtube (Giant, Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, etc).

There are diehards in every niche who swear to the superiority of their object of choice, many of whom have never actually tried the supposedly inferior alternatives. In bikes, this goes both ways in many areas --metal to carbon, carbon to metal; Sram to Shimano to Campagnolo, then back again; Wahoo to Garmin, Garmin to Wahoo; this helmet, that helmet, these shoes, those shoes, these brakes, those brakes, so on and so forth.

If the social aspects and visual aesthetics of small company metal appeal, then that's that. But like you said yourself, things like tubeless wheels, electronic shifting, disc brakes --try them, you might like them!

Personally, I love how my steel bikes ride and I'm okay with rim brakes. They worked for ~100 years and they still work (with aluminum brake tracks). But disc brakes are so significantly superior that whenever someone poo poo's them I just think "You haven't actually tried them in any significant capacity, have you?" And while steel is great and I'm glad to own and frequently ride to of 'em, if I had to own only one bike, especially with your ambitions of riding 100 mile/10,000+ elevation days regularly, geez, no question, gimme a nice carbon TCR.

[EB]

If ease of maintenance is important to you, you can pretty much write off buying a new carbon bike from a large manufacturer. As nice as many of them are, almost every single road race bike in the most recent model years has been spec’d with thru-headset (and in many cases thru-stem) cable and hose routing.

This means removing cables and completely redoing routing if you need to replace a headset bearing. If the routing goes through the stem, you will also have to reroute cables if the stem or handlebars have to be changed. If the brakes are hydraulic, a bleed of both brakes will be required.

So far this disease hasn’t infected gravel bikes… so far.

[giordana93]

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

I just don't think anyone not the size of Giant, Trek, and Specialized can afford to do their R&D and make hundreds of iterations until they reach 'perfect for now'....no question, gimme a nice carbon TCR.

I'm not going to dispute the general idea that a modern carbon disk bike is a wonderful thing, and for many, the best choice. It's debatable and a fun debate to have in this echo chamber in the depths of winter. I will, however, dispute the supremacy of Giant, Trek and Specialized. That's ridiculous. Those just happen to be the most widely sold. Not to include the likes of Scott, Bianchi, Cannondale and a whole host of others in the conversation, especially if OP is close to a shop that sells these other brands, is not great advice. I have always found Specialized too gimicky, often with proprietary parts; and if you gave me a high end Trek I would sell it to buy something else. Nothing exceptional about their offerings and to say that I do not approve of their corporate practices is an understatement. We just lost a local dealer who had been selling Trek for decades, mainly because a Trek corporate store opened maybe 5 miles away, and guess who had stock when times got tough? Usually overpriced when you drill down in the specs. Specialized has not always been great with their dealers either--or with coffee shops who took the name of a town in France that big S confused with one of their trademarks. I'm brand neutral on Giant. They make good bikes for a good price and I have respect for them, but no real spark for them either. The TCR is a fine bike.
My "fast" bike is a Scott Foil. I don't think anyone who knows carbon technology would find the Scott engineers and designers lagging behind the big 3. By the way, even though the Foil is an aero race bike it has room for 30s (one of the benefits of disc brakes of course). Not trying to pick a fight; just pointing out this myth of the great R&D from corporations who spend alot on the marketing of their R&D

[weisan]

Originally Posted by br0qn

br0qn pal, judging by your post and responses, and looking through pictures of your current bike and previous ones on your website/IG etc, I felt that you should give yourself more credit than you think you deserve - you have good taste, looks like you are having a lot of fun, you are fit and your position on the bike looks pretty good. You have gone through stages of your cycling development, evolving as your goals and interests change. All of which provided you with valuable experience that have informed you of what you like/dislike,, what works what doesn't, your preferred riding style and terrain, and the direction you want to go.

What I am trying to say is: you are on the right track, trust your instincts and stay on course.

Whatever you do, I want you to remember one thing: focus on what's important.

There are typically three levers that a cyclist can pull to change things up.

Lever 1) Personal fitness, health, flexbility

Lever 2) Environment, terrain, location, where they live and ride

Lever 3) Equipment, latest technology ergonomics, weight, aero

Lever 1 is arguably the hardest to pull off - it takes dedicated training, sacrifice, time on the saddle, miles in the legs, skills/ techniques, learning to draft and ride in the paceline, watching what you eat, keep the weight down, staying fit, stretching regularly and strengthening other parts of the body not covered by cycling. These take discipline and effort, not to mention getting older every year.

Lever 2 may or may not always be in our control. Where we live and places we ride sometimes are limited by our occupation and who we work for, avaliable free time, family commitments, and the time/money we have to travel to the ideal location.

Lever 3 is the low hanging fruit. The tendency is for people to pull on lever 3 a lot as a way to make up for the lack of lever 1 and 2 but i hope you can see that no amount of lever 3 can fully replace what's missing in 1 and 2 (sometimes it can help, for example, an ebike for an older cyclist or someone with lesser abilities).
The truth is, you don't need a $7k bike to maximize your potential or to enjoy riding a bike in whatever terrain or reach whatever goals of your choosing. Seriously, you don't! There are many, many bikes under $3k or even much less that can meet any or all of your requirements. I should know because I have done it over the years simply by buying and trying out different used bikes being offered on the classifieds here or craigslist or eBay. I have kept my expenses pretty low and affordable by doing my own wrenching work, buying parts online when on sales and not chasing after the latest and greatest. That's not to say that i am a luddite or a retro-guy (btw calling names or labeling people this or that is not helpful, it's a sign of weakness) in fact I have made it a policy not to criticize or comment on something until I have tried it myself and I have. I constantly switch between bikes that are 5-10 years apart in terms of bike tech yet I don't find myself handicapped or missing out the fun. Far from it, I focus on what's important: the riding experience, my personal fitness, social interactions.

The last thing I will say is, bike fit is a dynamic range not a fixed number. It's not static, it can change with time and your body. The goal is to keep it fluid and flexible, experiment yourself, be bold enough to try different things, you will get better at it with experience and when you are in tune with your body, as long as you get into the ball park or inside the fit window you are good.

Whatever you do, don't lose the curiosity, sense of adventure, returning back to the basics every now and then, and be grateful that you are well and alive and able to enjoy this beautiful sport, it's a privilege. .

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by br0qn

i appreciate the link. but all of those things are what i'm actually trying to stay away from in regards to disk, tubeless and electronic shifting. again, no first hand experience with these things but ease of maintenance is a big one for me and i'm not yet convinced on tubeless though i probably well could be. electronic shifting however...ehh that's the hardest one for me to swallow but who knows, i need to try it, and everything else for that matter, before having a valid opinion.

Since moving to axs, my bike requires less maintenance (none to be precise) besides keeping it cleaned and occasionally charging the battery. The chain and cassette last far longer. Since it uses dot fluid brakes are bled once a year. With tubeless and higher volume tires I almost never flat so all is required is monitoring the sealant and adding air as needed. Every single shift is exactly the same every single time and has been since day 1.

[MatchDave]

Saw the Look 585 on your list/photos of bikes that interest you. It's one of my two "never get rid of" frames. Exceptionally smooth ride, smoother than other carbon frames I've had, and I'm riding it with 25 mm tires, inflation in the 70's. Continental 5000s in 28 were too tight a fit for my comfort level, although they measure about 30 on the rim, and a true measured 28 might work fine.

I strongly agree with advice of getting a good fitting first, then see what frames have geometry that would work well for you. IF the Look 585 geometry would work well, lots of people absolutely love that frame.

Having said all that, obviously the Santa Monica mountains have big descents to go with those big climbs. Have driven some of the canyon descents, got my attention from a cyclist's perspective. I've never owned a bike with disk brakes, and cyclists have of course been doing such descents with rim brakes forever, but riding those descents frequently might get me to think about disks.

[fourflys]

OP- tons of good info/advice here for sure.. I would much of Baron Blubba says to heart.. while I LOVE buying used bikes as you can certainly get a lot of bike for the money, with the caveat "if it's the right size".. that is what a shop like Baron's would do for you it sounds like (never met Mike in person, but I like his style).. I have bought many used bikes based on what someone here or there told me is "my size".. and maybe there were, but I didn't have the experience of a good shop to help me fine tune that last bit of fit to make it perfect.. now that certainly depends on the shop for sure.. and, IMHO, fitters can be just as hit or miss on that as well..

anyway, Giants really are a fantastic bang for the buck, but if you are looking for mechanical, rim braked bikes, they are not for you as new.. if you are looking for rim brake road, I'm not really sure you need bigger than a true 28mm tire.. unless you are husky ( and you aren't at 135 of course) and need higher pressures (like me, but i still ride a comfy 28 around 80 psi), then maybe.. but I have often rode off pavement on 28s.. not chunky trail, but certainly dirt.. I guess what I'm saying is I wouldn't sleep on a mechanical, rim brake bike that fits well just because it only fits 28s.. (maybe I missed something in your original post on tire size, sorry if I did)

certainly plenty of options out there, and that is often the problem..

[Kingson]

don't know about that particular Izalco Max (electronic), but the one that i have, 2017 mechanical, will fit a 28mm (measured).
whether it will have clearance that you, or other people are comfortable with is another question.
currently the rear tire measures 26mm, and has more than enough clearance. 28mm will fit.
i assume that they have the same clearance.
i can take a picture with a 28mm tire/wheel installed

https://imgur.com/a/X0PVnhJ

the Look 585 will barely fit 28mm measured
conti GP4k2 25mm on pacenti forza rim